Comments on: “I have a Gay Friend…” http://www.mindonfire.com/2009/09/21/i-have-a-gay-friend/ Religion, SF, and Other Speculative Fictions. Thu, 09 Feb 2012 18:55:49 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: Sunday in Outer Blogness: Everything is coming up gay again! | Main Street Plaza http://www.mindonfire.com/2009/09/21/i-have-a-gay-friend/comment-page-1/#comment-24954 Sunday in Outer Blogness: Everything is coming up gay again! | Main Street Plaza Sun, 27 Sep 2009 17:24:35 +0000 http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1845#comment-24954 [...] R muses on using the “I have a gay friend” cover for opposing gay marriage. And speaking of [...] [...] R muses on using the “I have a gay friend” cover for opposing gay marriage. And speaking of [...]

]]> By: chosha http://www.mindonfire.com/2009/09/21/i-have-a-gay-friend/comment-page-1/#comment-24930 chosha Fri, 25 Sep 2009 06:07:45 +0000 http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1845#comment-24930 YAH!!! Thanks for moving the captcha up! Elaine@5: That definately makes sense. I used to feel the same when I'd go to Pride related event and have these moments where I'd wonder if people were just assuming I was a lesbian and then think, wait a minute, what do I care if they do? (Obviously leaving out hot straight guys out of that 'they' as I'd not like them to assume so, haha.) I mean, I do think that sometimes that worry in me was less my underlying socialisation and more an understanding that it would be no fun to deal with some of the crap my lesbian friends put up with, but even so. I must say though, I don't like the assertion that we can't change our socialisation. I think we can always change at least that part of it that we are aware of. And once we do that, it makes us more aware of the parts we missed before. It takes time, and is an ongoing process (because we are always being socialised), but it's possible. YAH!!! Thanks for moving the captcha up!
Elaine@5: That definately makes sense. I used to feel the same when I’d go to Pride related event and have these moments where I’d wonder if people were just assuming I was a lesbian and then think, wait a minute, what do I care if they do? (Obviously leaving out hot straight guys out of that ‘they’ as I’d not like them to assume so, haha.) I mean, I do think that sometimes that worry in me was less my underlying socialisation and more an understanding that it would be no fun to deal with some of the crap my lesbian friends put up with, but even so.
I must say though, I don’t like the assertion that we can’t change our socialisation. I think we can always change at least that part of it that we are aware of. And once we do that, it makes us more aware of the parts we missed before. It takes time, and is an ongoing process (because we are always being socialised), but it’s possible.

]]> By: John http://www.mindonfire.com/2009/09/21/i-have-a-gay-friend/comment-page-1/#comment-24918 John Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:27:19 +0000 http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1845#comment-24918 Thanks, Molly, for the offer, but I got off my lazy ass and moved the one line of php code above the submit button. Hard to believe I once coded my own blogging platform! :P Thanks, Molly, for the offer, but I got off my lazy ass and moved the one line of php code above the submit button. Hard to believe I once coded my own blogging platform! :P

]]> By: Molly http://www.mindonfire.com/2009/09/21/i-have-a-gay-friend/comment-page-1/#comment-24916 Molly Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:23:06 +0000 http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1845#comment-24916 Oh, and SUNNofaB.C.Rich, it ain't hard to find: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_animals Oh, and SUNNofaB.C.Rich, it ain’t hard to find:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_animals

]]> By: Molly http://www.mindonfire.com/2009/09/21/i-have-a-gay-friend/comment-page-1/#comment-24915 Molly Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:19:14 +0000 http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1845#comment-24915 John, I'm happy to help with WP hacking should you need it. Rearranging the CAPTCHA should be no big. John,

I’m happy to help with WP hacking should you need it. Rearranging the CAPTCHA should be no big.

]]> By: Craig http://www.mindonfire.com/2009/09/21/i-have-a-gay-friend/comment-page-1/#comment-24906 Craig Wed, 23 Sep 2009 17:57:52 +0000 http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1845#comment-24906 @John - I also think the CAPTCHA might be better if situated elsewhere. I've lost a couple comments myself because I forgot it was there and didn't scroll down below the submit button. Maybe if the submit button were just below the CAPTCHA. @John – I also think the CAPTCHA might be better if situated elsewhere. I’ve lost a couple comments myself because I forgot it was there and didn’t scroll down below the submit button. Maybe if the submit button were just below the CAPTCHA.

]]> By: John http://www.mindonfire.com/2009/09/21/i-have-a-gay-friend/comment-page-1/#comment-24900 John Wed, 23 Sep 2009 05:04:44 +0000 http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1845#comment-24900 Chosha, apologies about the capcha. I'll see what I can do to change it, but I'm not quite sure I'm ready to turn it off, since I don't have time to manage spam. SUNN: one more googled article: http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx Chosha, apologies about the capcha. I’ll see what I can do to change it, but I’m not quite sure I’m ready to turn it off, since I don’t have time to manage spam.

SUNN: one more googled article:

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx

]]> By: chosha http://www.mindonfire.com/2009/09/21/i-have-a-gay-friend/comment-page-1/#comment-24898 chosha Wed, 23 Sep 2009 01:19:09 +0000 http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1845#comment-24898 No idea, but Google might. No idea, but Google might.

]]> By: SUNNofaB.C.Rich@aol.com http://www.mindonfire.com/2009/09/21/i-have-a-gay-friend/comment-page-1/#comment-24897 SUNNofaB.C.Rich@aol.com Wed, 23 Sep 2009 00:42:48 +0000 http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1845#comment-24897 lol... ok, ok but what about the mechanics of it? lol… ok, ok but what about the mechanics of it?

]]> By: chosha http://www.mindonfire.com/2009/09/21/i-have-a-gay-friend/comment-page-1/#comment-24896 chosha Wed, 23 Sep 2009 00:33:41 +0000 http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1845#comment-24896 Asker of the 'serious question': Google. Search terms: lesbian penguins. FIRST link in results: http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/483 Story about a zoo that appears to have a lesbian penguin couple. At least make an effort... :) Asker of the ‘serious question’: Google. Search terms: lesbian penguins. FIRST link in results: http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/483 Story about a zoo that appears to have a lesbian penguin couple. At least make an effort… :)

]]> By: SUNNofaB.C.Rich@aol.com http://www.mindonfire.com/2009/09/21/i-have-a-gay-friend/comment-page-1/#comment-24895 SUNNofaB.C.Rich@aol.com Wed, 23 Sep 2009 00:24:00 +0000 http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1845#comment-24895 hello, I have serious question I was reading up some stuff on the APA and homosexuality etc etc the other day and noticed something about homosexual behavior being observed in animals such as penguins and started wondering about the mechanics of it and was wondering if there was any evidence of lesbian penguins. Serious question. hello, I have serious question I was reading up some stuff on the APA and homosexuality etc etc the other day and noticed something about homosexual behavior being observed in animals such as penguins and started wondering about the mechanics of it and was wondering if there was any evidence of lesbian penguins. Serious question.

]]> By: chosha http://www.mindonfire.com/2009/09/21/i-have-a-gay-friend/comment-page-1/#comment-24887 chosha Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:48:32 +0000 http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1845#comment-24887 I really hate how the captcha code is underneath the submit button. I've lost so many comments that way not seeing it because I've only scrolled till the submit button is showing and I hate having to retype. I really hate how the captcha code is underneath the submit button. I’ve lost so many comments that way not seeing it because I’ve only scrolled till the submit button is showing and I hate having to retype.

]]> By: Max Power http://www.mindonfire.com/2009/09/21/i-have-a-gay-friend/comment-page-1/#comment-24886 Max Power Tue, 22 Sep 2009 04:55:00 +0000 http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1845#comment-24886 Maybe I should clarify a little. I actually work in a place that from a corporate perspective is very gay friendly. As I've been told, we were the first company to score 100% on the HRC something-or-other certification that shows how gay-friendly companies are. We have an active GLBTA group that I participate in. Most people seem to be okay with it. It's just that with the ultra-conservative, Rush Limbaugh-lovers that are in management positions (and have been for years), you never know what you are going to get. I came out of the closet 2.5 years ago, so everyone at work has always known me as a straight Mormon. So, I've heard my fair share of derogatory comments from these old managers. I don't think that it's that they aren't aware of the laws, they just don't care at this point in their lives. So, it's not the company at large, but a handful of individuals. Maybe I should clarify a little.

I actually work in a place that from a corporate perspective is very gay friendly. As I’ve been told, we were the first company to score 100% on the HRC something-or-other certification that shows how gay-friendly companies are. We have an active GLBTA group that I participate in. Most people seem to be okay with it.

It’s just that with the ultra-conservative, Rush Limbaugh-lovers that are in management positions (and have been for years), you never know what you are going to get. I came out of the closet 2.5 years ago, so everyone at work has always known me as a straight Mormon. So, I’ve heard my fair share of derogatory comments from these old managers. I don’t think that it’s that they aren’t aware of the laws, they just don’t care at this point in their lives.

So, it’s not the company at large, but a handful of individuals.

]]> By: Craig http://www.mindonfire.com/2009/09/21/i-have-a-gay-friend/comment-page-1/#comment-24885 Craig Tue, 22 Sep 2009 04:37:17 +0000 http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1845#comment-24885 I agree with xJane. To say that only actions/words are homophobic/racist/sexist is to ignore the fact that in many people (but obviously not all) those statements stem from a deeper more fundamental internal bigotry. For example, I do myself sometimes say or behave in a sexist, racist or homophobic way without quite realising - but I'm very far removed from those who truly are bigoted. @James I wonder why you felt yourself singled out? @Max That's very sad that you can't even count on laws to prevent discrimination - though I'm not surprised. Do you think that it's because there's not as much awareness of the laws, or that people just don't care and will risk it anyhow? I can't say I ever personally used this "technique" - either because I was too closeted and afraid to EVER even talk about homosexuality, or because I was out and didn't have to reference others to be able to talk (at length) about it. But I can say that I cannot remember an instance when I've heard someone use the "I have a gay friend..." and then heard something positive (or even factual). It may well have happened, I just don't remember. It seems to me like an inability to take responsibility for their own bigotry/homophobia. On those relatively rare instances I encounter heterophobia I've found that I don't normally preface my pro-hetero statements with" Now, I'm not straight, but...". Perhaps because it's obvious that I'm not straight (I have no idea how likely this is as I've no idea how obvious I am), or perhaps because heterosexuality is completely accepted. I agree with xJane. To say that only actions/words are homophobic/racist/sexist is to ignore the fact that in many people (but obviously not all) those statements stem from a deeper more fundamental internal bigotry.

For example, I do myself sometimes say or behave in a sexist, racist or homophobic way without quite realising – but I’m very far removed from those who truly are bigoted.

@James
I wonder why you felt yourself singled out?

@Max
That’s very sad that you can’t even count on laws to prevent discrimination – though I’m not surprised. Do you think that it’s because there’s not as much awareness of the laws, or that people just don’t care and will risk it anyhow?

I can’t say I ever personally used this “technique” – either because I was too closeted and afraid to EVER even talk about homosexuality, or because I was out and didn’t have to reference others to be able to talk (at length) about it.

But I can say that I cannot remember an instance when I’ve heard someone use the “I have a gay friend…” and then heard something positive (or even factual). It may well have happened, I just don’t remember. It seems to me like an inability to take responsibility for their own bigotry/homophobia.

On those relatively rare instances I encounter heterophobia I’ve found that I don’t normally preface my pro-hetero statements with” Now, I’m not straight, but…”. Perhaps because it’s obvious that I’m not straight (I have no idea how likely this is as I’ve no idea how obvious I am), or perhaps because heterosexuality is completely accepted.

]]> By: John http://www.mindonfire.com/2009/09/21/i-have-a-gay-friend/comment-page-1/#comment-24884 John Tue, 22 Sep 2009 04:27:10 +0000 http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1845#comment-24884 Max: First of all, welcome! We're also in Irvine, btw. Secondly, thank you for adding some nuance to my polemics. My posts very often make broad claims and I count on the comments to qualify and add complexity to my simple claims. Life is rarely black and white. It took me a decade to ease out of the Church, because of all of the social considerations. And they were important ones to me. We have to work within our contexts. And I wonder sometimes how my blogging will impact me the next time I go looking for work... Max:

First of all, welcome! We’re also in Irvine, btw.

Secondly, thank you for adding some nuance to my polemics. My posts very often make broad claims and I count on the comments to qualify and add complexity to my simple claims. Life is rarely black and white.

It took me a decade to ease out of the Church, because of all of the social considerations. And they were important ones to me. We have to work within our contexts. And I wonder sometimes how my blogging will impact me the next time I go looking for work…

]]> By: xJane http://www.mindonfire.com/2009/09/21/i-have-a-gay-friend/comment-page-1/#comment-24883 xJane Tue, 22 Sep 2009 03:27:02 +0000 http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1845#comment-24883 Hellmut - I'm not certain that it <i>is</i> better to "love the bigot but hate the bigotry" and use the verb rather than the noun. To me, that smacks of allowing someone to not take responsibility for their actions. Isolated bigoted actions do not a bigot make; but when one makes a habit of something, it is dishonest <i>not</i> to call them a bigot. Elaine - I sympathize with your sentiment of why it should matter if people think you're gay when you say something pro-gay. I have some friends currently caught up in a situation that would be completely alleviated if one of them were to simply say, "So what if people think I'm gay?" and merely be comfortable with who <i>he</i> knows he is, rather than who people around him think he is. Max - thank you for commenting! I understand what you mean about industries that are excessively conservative as well as the rules not necessarily protecting those they are meant to protect. Good luck, friend. Hellmut – I’m not certain that it is better to “love the bigot but hate the bigotry” and use the verb rather than the noun. To me, that smacks of allowing someone to not take responsibility for their actions. Isolated bigoted actions do not a bigot make; but when one makes a habit of something, it is dishonest not to call them a bigot.

Elaine – I sympathize with your sentiment of why it should matter if people think you’re gay when you say something pro-gay. I have some friends currently caught up in a situation that would be completely alleviated if one of them were to simply say, “So what if people think I’m gay?” and merely be comfortable with who he knows he is, rather than who people around him think he is.

Max – thank you for commenting! I understand what you mean about industries that are excessively conservative as well as the rules not necessarily protecting those they are meant to protect. Good luck, friend.

]]> By: Hellmut http://www.mindonfire.com/2009/09/21/i-have-a-gay-friend/comment-page-1/#comment-24882 Hellmut Tue, 22 Sep 2009 01:47:44 +0000 http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1845#comment-24882 You'll speak up when you you are ready, Max. Thanks for sharing your story. You’ll speak up when you you are ready, Max. Thanks for sharing your story.

]]> By: Jana http://www.mindonfire.com/2009/09/21/i-have-a-gay-friend/comment-page-1/#comment-24881 Jana Tue, 22 Sep 2009 01:23:32 +0000 http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1845#comment-24881 Max: I appreciated your perspective on this. Thank you so much for chiming in. Max:
I appreciated your perspective on this. Thank you so much for chiming in.

]]> By: Max Power http://www.mindonfire.com/2009/09/21/i-have-a-gay-friend/comment-page-1/#comment-24880 Max Power Tue, 22 Sep 2009 01:17:48 +0000 http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1845#comment-24880 There are plenty of job protection laws here in California. There are also a lot of internal policies at my company to protect people and their jobs. But, I don't put a lot of faith in the older conservatives here at work to abide by those rules. One a-hole boss could put a damper on my career for a few years. If he did, and I could prove it was discrimination, he might get disciplined. I might get moved to a different department or something to help me out, but the underlying problem is that even having received vengeance, I would be back at the bottom of the totem pole in my new department, trying to work my way up the ladder. At this point, it's just easier for me to pull the "I have a gay friend" card. But, in doing that I am definitely an enabler. Maybe if I had been less concerned with my own comfort at work, I could have swayed people to vote no on prop 8. When they said "I have a gay friend" maybe they would have considered, "wow, I actually *DO* have a gay friend, and maybe I should think about this protect marriage crap a little more before I blindly vote yes on it." There are plenty of job protection laws here in California. There are also a lot of internal policies at my company to protect people and their jobs. But, I don’t put a lot of faith in the older conservatives here at work to abide by those rules.

One a-hole boss could put a damper on my career for a few years. If he did, and I could prove it was discrimination, he might get disciplined. I might get moved to a different department or something to help me out, but the underlying problem is that even having received vengeance, I would be back at the bottom of the totem pole in my new department, trying to work my way up the ladder. At this point, it’s just easier for me to pull the “I have a gay friend” card.

But, in doing that I am definitely an enabler. Maybe if I had been less concerned with my own comfort at work, I could have swayed people to vote no on prop 8. When they said “I have a gay friend” maybe they would have considered, “wow, I actually *DO* have a gay friend, and maybe I should think about this protect marriage crap a little more before I blindly vote yes on it.”

]]> By: Hellmut http://www.mindonfire.com/2009/09/21/i-have-a-gay-friend/comment-page-1/#comment-24879 Hellmut Tue, 22 Sep 2009 01:06:09 +0000 http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1845#comment-24879 That is sad, Max. I hope that we can pass a job protection law soon. That is sad, Max. I hope that we can pass a job protection law soon.

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