141 responses so far ↓

• 1 wren // Sep 9, 2009 at 8:11 pm

  Peace, John.

• 2 Stan // Sep 9, 2009 at 8:59 pm

  Sounds like you are handling it like you should: Not letting it affect your life. Congratulations on being a good human being, above all else.

• 3 Rich // Sep 9, 2009 at 9:17 pm

  Glad it was positive, and glad you feel supported and loved — wonderful!

• 4 Connie // Sep 9, 2009 at 9:27 pm

  I am glad it was full of courtesy and not nasty.

• 5 Craig // Sep 9, 2009 at 9:47 pm

  I really wish I could be there to celebrate with you. I’m really happy it went well. I’m drinking a cup of coffee in your honour right now. Cheers!

• 6 Molly // Sep 9, 2009 at 10:11 pm

  Very cheeky fashion choice. Did you wear that to the meeting?

• 7 angryyoungwoman // Sep 9, 2009 at 10:23 pm

  Congratulations. I wish I could celebrate with you, too. I’m glad things went well and that you feel good about it

• 8 Thoughts about excommunication and resignation « Irresistible (Dis)Grace // Sep 9, 2009 at 10:46 pm

  [...] just happen overnight, after all), from what I can see, but it came to a boil here, here, and here. And this has brought other posts remarking about it, a brief write-up about it, and even a post [...]

• 9 Matt // Sep 9, 2009 at 11:37 pm

  Partaaaay!

  Sleep well, John and Jana. Beautiful day tomorrow. Send details soon!!!!

• 10 Kelly Ann // Sep 9, 2009 at 11:42 pm

  You realize that it IS September after all …

  I am glad your family were not beaten down by it.

• 11 amelia // Sep 9, 2009 at 11:43 pm

  yes, you do have the best friends in the world.

  so glad i could be there for you and jana tonight. and that you’re feeling peace. peace is a good thing.

• 12 Ryan J // Sep 10, 2009 at 12:00 am

  We’re glad we could celebrate together and share the moment with you and Jana. Congrats, and all the best when you wake up tomorrow as a fresh grad officially. It’s about time they give some of us diplomas!

• 13 JohnW // Sep 10, 2009 at 12:38 am

  Sooooo, I have a question. Do Mormons have to stay away from you or be in danger of having their temple recommends pulled?

• 14 Church Ousts Remy With Courtesy // Sep 10, 2009 at 12:42 am

  [...] Guilty as charged. Sentenced to excommunication on the spot. [...]

• 15 EBrown // Sep 10, 2009 at 12:46 am

  Congratulations! I wish I could have been there to share in the festivities!

• 16 Rainey // Sep 10, 2009 at 3:52 am

  Thinking of it as a graduation is very apt and healthy. You have had what the LDS had to offer and accepted your responsibility to grow beyond it.

  Congrats! And good to see all involved smiling. You’ll do great.

• 17 TGD // Sep 10, 2009 at 3:54 am

  Glad it went well. The day I received my letter that confirmed my resignation, I went out and celebrated. It was a wonderful day. And the days just keep getting better and better.

• 18 Kaimi // Sep 10, 2009 at 4:15 am

  Wesley: “We need a strategy.”
  Buffy: “I have a strategy. You’re not in it.”
  Wesley: “This is mutiny.”
  Buffy: “I like to think of it as… graduation.”

• 19 Megan // Sep 10, 2009 at 4:20 am

  I’m so happy it was positive and that the evening became a celebration of progress. It can only help not only you but the church to make these things positive and remove the stigma and the aura of punishment and recrimination that surrounds it.

  Congratulations to you and your family!

• 20 Cate // Sep 10, 2009 at 4:43 am

  JohnW (#13)

  Absolutely not.

  Cate

• 21 Greg // Sep 10, 2009 at 5:11 am

  Congratulations! Can’t wait to hear the details.

• 22 Jonathan Blake // Sep 10, 2009 at 6:02 am

  Congrats!

• 23 Chandelle // Sep 10, 2009 at 6:06 am

  You DID graduate!

  Wish I could have been there. You guys were in my thoughts.

• 24 G // Sep 10, 2009 at 6:28 am

  ((hugs))
  and dude! so wish I was there!

• 25 Elaine // Sep 10, 2009 at 6:36 am

  I’m glad all went well for you.

  I wish I could have been there at the after-party.

• 26 William Shunn // Sep 10, 2009 at 7:01 am

  Congratulations! I’m particularly pleased that the court stayed courteous, and I look forward to the details.

  Wish I could have been there, but I toasted you from a distance last night!

• 27 Equality // Sep 10, 2009 at 7:11 am

  You all look so “miserable” and “angry” and “bitter” in those photos. Lol. I’d love to hear what the specific charges were–speaking truths that church management finds “not useful”?

  Congratulations. I think you will look back on this with a sigh of relief. It is not your loss–it’s the LDS Church’s, which once again has shown that it values conformity and blind obedience to supposed authority over love, tolerance, respect, honesty, personal integrity, and freedom of conscience, all of which apparently have no place in the Monsonite branch of Mormonism.

  Peace.

• 28 Lydia // Sep 10, 2009 at 7:32 am

  Living well is the best revenge!! )

• 29 Mike // Sep 10, 2009 at 7:43 am

  Sending warm wishes your way. I hope that they learned something through the experience as well.

• 30 James // Sep 10, 2009 at 9:32 am

  If you indeed wanted to not be viewed as an apostate caricature, the t-shirt was an odd move.

• 31 xJane // Sep 10, 2009 at 9:32 am

  Oh, how I wish I could’ve been there for the after-party! Congratulations! I had some virtual excommunication cupcakes in your honor (now there would be a recipe to rival Schadenfreude Pie).

• 32 apple // Sep 10, 2009 at 9:41 am

  I think it is sad you forced people you once called friends into acting in a way that they thought will harm you. I promise they were nothing but hurt, sad, and disturbed they had to do this. You obviously wanted out–why harm others to satisfy your victemhood? To me it was an act of cowardice. I live by the Witches Rede “An ye harm none, do what you will.” But here you have damaged the souls of good men to satisfy your own craving for a bit of drama. Too bad.

• 33 Fully Caffeinated // Sep 10, 2009 at 9:47 am

  I’m drinking TWO cups of coffee in your honor! So I can be super superior to all those other coffee drinkers out there only drinking one cup.

  I have all the ingredients for Schadenfreude Pie. I should make one.

• 34 apple // Sep 10, 2009 at 10:19 am

  Only putting up praise eh? Only faithful history allowed eh? Where have I seen that before . . .

• 35 Bo // Sep 10, 2009 at 10:31 am

  Glad to have been there afterwards.

• 36 John // Sep 10, 2009 at 10:44 am

  apple, hold your fucking horses, I just got online for the first time this morning. Comment moderation is set for first time commenters. Dig around and you’ll find plenty of criticism throughout this site.

• 37 Equality // Sep 10, 2009 at 10:45 am

  apple (34), see apple (32). Sometimes these blogs don’t post comments immediately.

  apple, can you please articulate why you think the Stake Presidency and High Council “had to do this.” Why do you think they had no choice? Do you think all members who do not attend regularly and who do not believe in all the doctrines of the LDS church should be excommunicated?

• 38 John // Sep 10, 2009 at 10:49 am

  Thank you, everyone, for your support. I’m cognizant that not everyone who is ex’d has such a supportive community. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

  Fully caffeinated, thanks for the jittery superiority.

  Bill, Jana and I toasted you as well. Thanks again.

  James, good point, and one I thought deeply about before the council:

  “If you indeed wanted to not be viewed as an apostate caricature, the t-shirt was an odd move.”

  In the end, I didn’t regret it–but I’ll write more about that in my post.

• 39 John // Sep 10, 2009 at 10:50 am

  apple (and comment subscribers), apologies for the profanity. didn’t sleep much last night and the coffee’s still kicking in.

• 40 EBrown // Sep 10, 2009 at 10:56 am

  Apple reminds me of Reagan, who when visiting Germany said that the SS were victims, too.

• 41 Nylon Mesh Scoopneck // Sep 10, 2009 at 11:02 am

  John, when you put up your post, please be specific about: (1) what was the specific charge against you? (apostasy? conduct unbecoming a member?); and (2) what was the specific evidence used to support that charge?

  I’m dying to know because I watched your earlier videos re the temple and, although they certainly crossed a line of decorum that most Church members wouldn’t, in my view they did not meet the Church Handbook’s definition of “apostasy” because: (1) you only promise not to reveal very specific things in the temple, and your video did not involve those specific things [the one exception is the Big Love clip, but can a member really be excommunicated for replaying a segment of a TV show?]; (2) the aspect of your temple experience that you spoke about is no longer a part of the temple ceremony, and how could you be punished for revealing something that isn’t even part of the temple ceremony?

  So I’d actually be surprised if the temple-related video blogs were used to convict you. What I wouldn’t be surprised about, however, is if they were to gather mountains of statements you’ve made here in repeated, open, clear opposition to Church leaders, which is a grounds for excommunication. That at least would be in compliance with the Church Handbook; the temple-related video, eh, not so much.

  If I were the prosecution, I think I might have gone for the more vague “conduct unbecoming a member” grounds for excommunication because there’s more wiggle room there and I wouldn’t have to worry about whether you triggered the specific definition of “apostasy” in the Handbook.

• 42 Cate // Sep 10, 2009 at 11:08 am

  EBrown,

  It takes a special kind of person to look at a group of John’s friends, who felt like formalizing his break with the church would be best for both sides, who did so – according to John’s own words – with kindness, and compare them to SS.

  Caricature, indeed.

• 43 apple // Sep 10, 2009 at 11:13 am

  What was the point of this then? The Sept. 6 were heroes in part because they wanted to stay. You didn’t. Do you believe these men were not affected by this? So from my perspective this became a dog and pony show — look at the after-exing rejoicing, most of the Sept. 6 wept for days. The institutional leviathen was not touched, just the men who had to play the orgin while you danced.

  And EBrown thanks for the quick application of Godwin’s law –look it up on wiki.

• 44 John // Sep 10, 2009 at 11:21 am

  apple, I addressed that question in this post. Also, I don’t operate with the LDS Church as my context, but in the community you can find in the comments of yesterday’s post. Check those out if you’re really interested in the answer, then if you want to drill down with more nuanced questions, I’m happy to answer them.

  Everyone (including me), let’s ratchet down the tone, shall we. Let’s treat each other with respect.

• 45 Equality // Sep 10, 2009 at 11:25 am

  apple,

  I am still curious as to how John “forced” the SP and High Council to excommunicate them against their own wishes, as you aver in your comment number 32. Can you please elaborate? Thanks.

• 46 Equality // Sep 10, 2009 at 11:26 am

  Correction: “excommunicate him” not “excommunicate them.” Carry on.

• 47 apple // Sep 10, 2009 at 11:26 am

  I’ll bow out. I don’t want to become a Troll. I just think John’s was not a act of grace. And no the men did not have to do this by force, but they are the victem of their bielf system as we all are. If John had to no truck with the church the noble thing would have been to take his leave. I have many friends who have done so with authenticity. I can’t really judge John and symapathize with this reasons for going, I can sense the harm he feels from the church, but forcing the members of the stake’s hand seemed just to return violence for violence. Not a commendable choice. That’s all.

• 48 George // Sep 10, 2009 at 11:29 am

  You have lots of supporters in the North County as well. You know, Yorba Linda, where Mike Duvall, state assemblyman, resigned yesterday. The guy who was all family values & cherry pie, big on prop H8, who said a few nasty things close to a open mike about his girlfriend(s). His wife
  and kids weren’t happy. Shalom John & Jana. I hope to meet you sometimes. I think you know
  some of my five offspring.

• 49 Removed at the request of comment-author. // Sep 10, 2009 at 11:35 am

  Removed at the request of comment-author.

• 50 Rainey // Sep 10, 2009 at 11:39 am

  re #42

  apple, I’m not sure how you draw the conclusion that the Sept 6 were heroic because they wanted to remain active LDS. I have never heard such an interpretation before.

  They may or may not have wanted to remain active after finding out how much subterfuge the church had engaged in. I freely confess I don’t know their hearts. But I, personally, consider their heroism a matter of their integrity to embrace the truth as it exposed itself to them. They refused to be cowed regardless of the personal consequences. And, in that, John follows proudly in esteemed shoes.

• 51 Fully Caffeinated // Sep 10, 2009 at 11:40 am

  @apple If I read this correctly, you are judging John based on YOUR belief system and not one that he claims himself. This seems very familiar to me…

• 52 Equality // Sep 10, 2009 at 11:42 am

  apple,

  I do not think you are a troll. You made a comment that interested me. I have heard people say lots of different things about this situation but you are the first I have seen state that somehow John forced the hand of the SP and HC. As I understand it, John posted something a little controversial here several months ago and his Bishop or SP talked to him about it and mentioned the possibility of church disciplinary action. Months went by and then John and Jana were blindsided by an invitation to a disciplinary council to be held in John’s “behalf” where he would be charged with “apostasy.” I am just curious as to what it is you think John did that forced the SP’s hand and why you think they had no choice but to excommunicate him.

  I think the question can be turned around: why is the church forcing people like John and Jana out? Read the comments to the open thread that John posted yesterday. Look at how many bright, creative, interesting, caring, compassionate people the church is driving away. Have you asked yourself why the church wants to go out of its way to kick someone like John out, and inflict the kind of emotional pain on his family? If you have a good answer for that, I would like to hear it. Thanks.

  To Jana,

  You and John don’t know me, but I have followed your story and your blogs pretty closely. I admire you both and respect you both tremendously. You are both an inspiration to me.

• 53 Fully Caffeinated // Sep 10, 2009 at 11:42 am

  @Jana No one truely expected you to be dancing this morning. At least no one that I know. Hugs.

• 54 EBrown // Sep 10, 2009 at 11:49 am

  I am familiar with Godwin’s law. I’m not comparing Apple to the SS but rather to Reagan, and to the “suffering” of those who exercise power. In the case of the court of “love,” the convening of the “court” was completely voltional, any pain or discomfort was self-inflicted.

• 55 Megan // Sep 10, 2009 at 12:07 pm

  Apple, I think actually John’s choice to face these men, men he (at least in part) knew, liked and trusted, in the way he did allowed all the parties to create something positive out of this situation.

  John’s already done a superb job of expressing why he made this choice. But I would also point out that by attending this court as he did, in what certainly sounds like a spirit of openness and integrity, he gave them the opportunity to express themselves with compassion and love. He is giving the church a chance to show a Church of Love in a positive and caring light.

  I’m putting this badly. What I’m trying to say is that in the church these Courts of Love are often used as weapons against those who dissent. Even when they are applied with sincerity on the parts of the authorities, the cultural reaction by others is more often than not judgmental and hostile. By choosing, courageously I think, to attend this court and thus give weight to both the church action and his own, John is publicly demonstrating that the courts can be positive both for the person attending and the people sitting in judgment.

  I’m not sure why you feel it was ‘forcing the members of the stake’s hand’ to attend a court they themselves called. Nor do I see how his action would ‘return violence for violence’ although I’m interested that you view a Court of Love as an act of violence. Instead it seems to me that both the Remys and the council members were given an opportunity to learn and grow from hearing another point of view.

  I’ve said it in another comment but I think one of the important things that can come out of this episode, particularly with John and Jana generously documenting their experiences and feelings, is a removal of the stigma that is attached to excommunication. Yes, many people now (including me) have, as you put it, taken their leave from the church by simply resigning. I had that option because a) the internet has made it possible to find out how to do it and b) past law suits have forced the church to process those resignations with (in most cases) a minimum of fuss and bother. For many decades that was not the case and there have been many people who, for various reasons, could only break with the church by going through what must have been often a painful and traumatic event. Further, those people were handed a label, a scarlet letter A for Apostate. Anyone with experience of the Mormon community knows what that A meant to members: moral sin (sexual, let’s be honest, it was always assumed to be sexual) and the impression of depravity and a fallen state. John’s writing has given another face to apostasy – one of intellectual integrity. I think that’s invaluable both for those of us who leave and those who stay.

• 56 Cobwebs // Sep 10, 2009 at 12:33 pm

  @Kaimi: Excellent choice of quote.

  Congrats, John! I’m very happy for you.

• 57 William Shunn // Sep 10, 2009 at 12:50 pm

  Apple (#46): I really don’t think John’s excommunication could have hurt the stake high council anymore than they were already hurt by his unashamed profession of his beliefs. And that initial hurt is not really within John’s power to control — except by not speaking what’s in his heart, keeping it all inside, and not being true to himself.

  It was either a happy occasion or a sad one last night — or both simultaneously — but it all depends on how we each decide to view it.

• 58 Bored in Vernal // Sep 10, 2009 at 1:06 pm

  I abhor violence of every type–even the feathery kind.

  Love you, Remys. Looking forward to hearing the rest of the story.

• 59 catBonny // Sep 10, 2009 at 1:12 pm

  All I have to say is that the excommunication cupcakes we awesome, and I was glad to be there to share the night with you guys- because you are awesome, and I am proud to be your friends. = )

• 60 Leslie // Sep 10, 2009 at 1:44 pm

  Congratulations! You’re out, and you finally have closure.

  For myself, I would have chosen to resign, simply because it would bother me if I wasn’t able to leave on my own terms, but was forced into a decision, whether I wanted it, or not. I guess that’s a matter of pride.

  But as long as you can comfortably live with being ex’d, I’m glad you had the courage to face them and let them do their dirty work. In the end, the decision that you made had to be what you could best live with.

  The more they work to censor people, the more archaic and controlling they will continue to look to the rest of the world. You had the courage to face them. Good on you.

• 61 Parker // Sep 10, 2009 at 1:59 pm

  John and Jana, I sorry you haven’t had access to the correct translation of the Parable of the Lost Sheep. The shepherd leaves the ninety and nine and finds the lost one. Then he slaughters and bar-b-ques him. My first paper I presented at Sunstone was an examination of people who had left the Church. The dominant theme was that in leaving they discovered themselves–”then I became me.” Always thinking about ya’ll.

• 62 chanson // Sep 10, 2009 at 2:40 pm

  Wow, congratulations on your “graduation”! I wish I could be there with you guys as well!

• 63 Hellmut // Sep 10, 2009 at 2:46 pm

  The stake president could have let it go. He chose to pursue the matter.

• 64 amelia // Sep 10, 2009 at 3:13 pm

  apple refers to the “after-exing rejoicing.” i feel compelled to speak, as one of the “rejoicers” to state that what happened last night was a group of friends gathering around john and jana to lend them support and strength in the face of a terribly difficult situation. that there was laughter and smiles and excommunication cupcakes (which were divine) can only be a good thing. in my opinion we did what the church should (but so often fails) to do: we loved each other and shared in each other’s concerns.

• 65 Dana Dahl // Sep 10, 2009 at 4:36 pm

  Congrats John. You are now an official ExMormon and from my experience, among a very intelligent and interesting lot. I think the smart ones get out leaving the dull and tedious to keep the cogs of the machine turning.

  Sugar covered pills of cyanide can’t hide the fact that you were the courageous one to stand in front of those men and declare your independence. Were any of those men in a similar position they’d need fresh underpants.

  The world is watching and we are proud as punch for what you stand for.

• 66 apple // Sep 10, 2009 at 5:54 pm

  Ok, I’ll weigh in because I’ve been asked. First, make no mistake. I think excommunication is inappropriate at anytime, for anyone, for any reason (ok, wrong except to protect children from predation, that I can see–not the case here). And I cannot judge you. It just seemed to me, form here reading your blog (and that’s all I know of you), that you were baiting the church and making a media event of it. The institutional church if full of harms. I’ve been the victim of that harm. But, here on the blog you clearly believed nothing of it and wanted nothing more of it, let every know that fact, flaunted what they thought of as sacred and then were hurt and surprised when they fulfilled your wish?

  In ancient Christianity it became popular to be a martyr. You might say it was the rage. So they would bait the Roman authorities and essentially beg to be thrown to the lions. It was a prestigious way to die. They would run out to the lion and bare their breasts praising God as they were torn up. Were the Romans wrong to throw them to the lions. Without question. Where these martyrdoms different from the first wave. Yes they were.

• 67 John // Sep 10, 2009 at 6:39 pm

  apple, good questions. They’re prodding me into self-examination.

  My motivations shift over time, to be sure. I remember earlier in the year, esp. after the disappointment of the prop 8 battle, wanting to take the Church on, to fight discrimination and be a thorn in its side using the one thing I have at my disposal, which is a tiny amount of media attention (enough to make them nervous). And I do want to go on record as a public critic of the Church.

  If I’m presenting myself as a martyr or victim because of the excommunication, I can honestly say that it’s not my motivation. The encounter back in June was stressful, mainly because of the impact on Jana and those around me. After not hearing from the church for the past few months, my expectations had shifted, and I thought maybe I wouldn’t be disciplined. I was considering waiting maybe another 6-12 months and then maybe resigning. So when I say that I wasn’t happy to see the letter, it was in the context of coming back from a happy weekend with Jana, and not having heard anything from the church for a few months, and realizing that we were going to have a stressful week ahead of us. I can be a little bummed in that situation, couldn’t I? Call it not a martyr complex, but a little whining about some of the stress that yes, I was partly (but not wholly) responsible for.

  I just re-read the On Our Anniversary post, and behold, that’s pretty much what I said then. I’m glad I’m at least a little consistent.

  But yeah, if you’re really interested in my motivation, please read carefully through some of the relevant posts. I really do try to analyze and document my motives. It’s part of why I blog.

• 68 apple // Sep 10, 2009 at 7:14 pm

  I appreciate your honesty and self reflection. I will go back and read your blog. You are obviously not someone easily antagonized as I’ve given you lots of reasons to be.

• 69 John // Sep 10, 2009 at 7:20 pm

  apple, now I’m feeling somewhat guilty–I sometimes say that I wouldn’t wish my blog on anyone! But thank you. I do depend on you and others to keep me honest, and I guarantee you’ll find inconsistencies here somewhere.

  Also, I’m so glad you stuck around today–I know things got hairy earlier this morning.

• 70 John // Sep 10, 2009 at 7:30 pm

  I wish I could’ve teleported most of you over last night, old friends and new.

  Equality, thank you–it means much coming from you! I’ve returned to your blog again and again over the years. It’s high time for me to return!

  Kaimi, you get bonus points or some gold stars or something for that Buffy quote.

• 71 John // Sep 10, 2009 at 7:34 pm

  Megan (#54), I feel completely humbled by your comment. If this is how you are when you’re expressing yourself badly, I can only imagine how eloquent you are when you’re on top of things! You’ve said better than I can some of what I’ve tried to accomplish, and I feel understood, which is a selfish but wonderful feeling. Thank you.

• 72 John // Sep 10, 2009 at 7:36 pm

  Parker, I have a new personal interest in this topic. I’m going to have to track down that paper of yours!

• 73 John // Sep 10, 2009 at 7:40 pm

  Dana, I listened to Jana literally LOL reading your comment. Thanks.

• 74 Dana Dahl // Sep 10, 2009 at 8:10 pm

  Freaking AAAAaaa, that’s like gold to me!!! Let me know when she’s drinking milk or eating peas because I save up some real doozies just for such occasions with the goal of causing someone to squirt milk out their nose or on special occasions, peas through the soft palate.

  I will sleep happily knowing I actually made someone laugh. Honk my nose and shake my hand buzzer!

  When I went through my disfellowship-ment (is that the word) I was called before six men I’d never met and who’d never even been to my home, let alone knew my story other than through rumor and conjecture so after hearing the bishops wimpery diatribe admonishing me for being a human being I just took off my shoe and placed it on the table and said, “If any of you would like to walk the half block from the church to my house in my shoes, then be my guest. If not, then you have no right to judge or even talk to me.”. Not one man even looked up from the floor. I took my shoe and walked out.

  Now they won’te even recognize my resignation or request for a temple annulment or divorce from my ex. I was told that because I’m a mere woman I can be traded up but will never be a free agent.

  My goal is to be so foul that someday they’ll excommunicate me on their own and release me from all their records and pestering. My plan is on target.

  You should hear me describe a live temple session. It includes a geriatric old coot in a one piece polyester jump suit, hugging his junk in a very disgusting cameltoe that still brings nightmares.

• 75 John // Sep 10, 2009 at 8:19 pm

  O.M.G. Jana and I both started laughing at the same time, in adjacent rooms. “You reading Dana’s comment?” “Yep.” Luckily I had just gulped down my gin and tonic.

  Dana, I hope we get the chance to hear you describe a live temple session in person some day.

  And don’t even get me started on the treatment of women and temple divorce/annulment/remarriage. The Church has in no way given up polygamy where they think it counts most, in the eternities.

• 76 Bored in Vernal // Sep 10, 2009 at 8:22 pm

  haha, I think I was laughing at the same time in South Carolina. Gotta love ya, Dana!

• 77 Lyndon Lamborn // Sep 10, 2009 at 8:22 pm

  Wow – an excommunication party! What a great idea. Nobody threw me a party

  Welcome to the Ex-mo community. A wise commenter to my excommunication video said that “they did not excommunicate you, you excommunicated them.” It is all a question of perspective. You have tossed off the “boat anchor” of Mormonism, which is a serious impediment to true spirituality, understanding, and good mental health. You and your family will be MUCH better off in the long run.

  My congratulations on this milestone.

• 78 Dana Dahl // Sep 10, 2009 at 8:25 pm

  Next time you’re inclined to play in Zion Nat. Park let me know. I live nearby and can regale you with all sorts of hoary hairy stories about the LDS experience as we hike the Narrows or other fabulous trails.

  I’ve bookmarked your blog and have a lot of catching up to do on it. I was just made aware of it a couple of days ago. Don’t know how I missed it all this time.

  It’s refreshing to get to know like minded people.

  For any men out there, no matter what the salesperson tells you, do not buy the polyester one piece jump suit with the belt sewn in, even if he/she assures you that it doesn’t make your butt look like someone smashed a bag of ice down your pants and kicked it loose.

• 79 Rainey // Sep 10, 2009 at 8:28 pm

  I have heard the audio of your proceeding, Lyndon. You conducted yourself with real dignity.

  I’m not sure I could have been so devoid of defensiveness or nervousness. I take that to be genuine conviction.

  How long has it been and what has been your experience since?

• 80 Dana Dahl // Sep 10, 2009 at 8:32 pm

  Hi Lyndon, I met you last Oct. at an exmo party during the conference where you spoke. I’d accidentally miscolored my hair to a stunning Molly McButter shade of orangy yellow. I have big bosoms. YOu should remember me.

  Lyndon is a true smarty pants and well adored in the Exmo world. I haven’t seen them so can neither confirm nor deny but I’ve heard he has cahoneys the size of grapefruit when it comes to standing up to LDS Goon squads.

• 81 John // Sep 10, 2009 at 8:42 pm

  Dana, we’ll look you up the next time we’re in town! Thanks for the invite!

  Lyndon, I just read about your experience at Equality Time. Wow. Our experiences were very different (something I plan to speak more about in the near future), church leaders were total jerks to you, and I agree with the power of the media to counterbalance the culture of secrecy. Plus you quoted Rush/Neil Peart.

  You totally deserved a party.

• 82 Lyndon Lamborn // Sep 10, 2009 at 8:45 pm

  It has been just over two years since I spat the rusty LDS hook out of my mouth. These years have been the best two years of my life [hmmm, (scratch head) where have I heard that before? (scratch head)].

  Nice to talk to you again, Dana. I am not all that smart, but have been fortunate to be on the open-minded end of the spectrum as I pass through my middle age era of my life… And I am happy to report that large bosoms still are very distracting. What were we talking about again? Oh yeah. Being excommunicated is a badge of honor, wear it with pride.

• 83 Dana Dahl // Sep 10, 2009 at 8:57 pm

  I’ve been calling myself an Emancipated Mormon for almost a decade now. Those who have left the LDS church understand instantly the rush of elation and freedom that comes with casting off that ball and chain but for me it was the equivilant of truely being born again, (not in any Christian sense though). I actually felt the physical sensation of a huge anvil lifting off my shoulders. The panic attacks and headaches stopped almost immediately and I truely felt a lightness of being.

  Now that I’ve had the luxury of reading a few of the posts here I realize that John and Jana have already exerted their joyous freedom in wonderful ways.

  Now you’re official. The last tether holding you to the dark and dreary box of Mormonism is undone and you can float into whatever is next in life. Pretty damn exciting isn’t it?

  For the record, I did not use the word Boobs in this post.

• 84 Dana Dahl // Sep 10, 2009 at 8:59 pm

  For Bored in Vernal, I have cousins from there. Are you one of them? (hint, we have massive calves and strong backs)

• 85 Lyndon Lamborn // Sep 10, 2009 at 9:00 pm

  Thanks John. In reality, I had a big party – it was called Ex-Mo conference 2008 Saturday evening dinner. Best party I have ever been to, and there wasn’t even any nudity (at least that I noticed).

  John, I am so glad that your exit was relatively painless. Hopefully, the SP won’t decide to announce your excommunication to all the adults in the stake like my SP promised to do.

  Dana – I loved doing the Narrows hike. You are lucky living so close to Zions Park.

• 86 Dana Dahl // Sep 10, 2009 at 9:07 pm

  It’s been some years since I hiked from the top down (17 miles as the crow flies, 2,600,000 on foot) but it’s one of those experiences that has never left me. That and Havasu Falls in Arizona are worth every blister, every raw thigh rash, every sore knee and sunburn. (note to self, wear proper underpants next time).

  Zion has been compared to Yosemite in technicolor. There’s not a day goes by that I don’t thank the flying teapot for such an incredible place.

  The only drawback from living in Southern Utah is the natural disaster of inbred Rednecks that breed like rabbits and infest ever corner of the state. I’ve tried numerous repellants and even toxic substances but they keep propogating.

• 87 Dana Dahl // Sep 10, 2009 at 9:12 pm

  Lyndon, at that party you surely met TEMPLE TINA, who was near nude and wearing her temple garments which tend to make anyone look a bit like a Thai Spring roll with the pink bits hinting through that thin sticky crawl up the crack nasty skanky calico colored fabric.

  Temple Tina is a blow up doll that has attended every Exmo conference since their inception. She’s vapid and full of hot stale air and ready to lead the RS any day.

• 88 Lyndon Lamborn // Sep 10, 2009 at 9:23 pm

  Oh yeah, Temple Tina! How could I forget? It was lust at first sight with me and Temple Tina, LOL. I actually helped Pam get Tina dressed one day.

  Thanks for mentioning another great memory, Dana.

• 89 Dana Dahl // Sep 10, 2009 at 9:35 pm

  Dang, that image just melts my butter. You and Pam in a threesome with TT. For those LDS lurking here, it’s true… once we leave the church our morals just go downhill. Vile Godless heathens one and all. And having a wonderful time too.

• 90 Bored in Vernal // Sep 10, 2009 at 9:43 pm

  Dana, sorry, not your cousin, & no longer live in Vernal. (though I do have strong calves.)

• 91 Dana Dahl // Sep 10, 2009 at 9:48 pm

  Well bored in Vernal, strong calves are a sign of pure Nordic bloodlines. Unfortunately they turn into kankles at some point, often simultaneously when all the rest of the Southern Hemisphere starts to drift past the equator.

  Gravity, proof that if there’s a God, he/she/it has a sense of humor.

• 92 James // Sep 11, 2009 at 8:40 am

  “You have tossed off the “boat anchor” of Mormonism, which is a serious impediment to true spirituality, understanding, and good mental health.”

  Do you get irritated when Mormons make hasty generalizations of ex-Mormons like yourself?

  It’s interesting to me how people like you criticize a hardline mentality like mormonism, only to adopt a completely opposite hardline mentality. Does doing this make you, in some strange way, feel better about the years you “wasted” in mormonism?

  I liken this to over-correcting while driving a car. You haven’t really changed anything except which guard rail you’re going to crash into.

• 93 Megan // Sep 11, 2009 at 8:48 am

  Thanks John. It’s something I learned as a history major – just keep waffling on long enough and eventually someone will come to a reasonable conclusion all on their own and, with luck, attribute it to you!

  (disclaimer – this was my personal approach to my well-loved major and not indicative of the doubtless far superior work of certain others, in particular PhD candidates. This approach is likely why I have my Magna Cum Laude history degree and work as a digital graphic designer.)

• 94 wren // Sep 11, 2009 at 8:50 am

  James, you’re making some rather bold assumptions about Lyndon (who made the anchor comment) or are you directing this at John? Do you know either of these men?

  I’ve been interacting with John for over 2 years online and I can assure you he hold no hardline mentality about anything except maybe compassion for his fellow wo/man. He has many, many active believing Mormon friends. I doubt that would be the case if he’d adopted some hardline in the opposite direction.

  I’ll presumptuously add that I don’t believe John would say he “wasted” years in Mormonism. Every experience we have helps us grow if we allow it to.

• 95 Dana Dahl // Sep 11, 2009 at 9:03 am

  Part of what I find makes being NOT MORMON so rewarding now is that I don’t KNOW anything anymore. There are no hard lines, no black and white, no limits to the options and ideas that can be examined and incorporated if they might be the best option.

  Perhaps the mindset of many LDS who have been conditioned to believe that they NEED the continual direction of an organized religion to guide their daily lives leads them to believe that those of us who have left also NEED to have something else once we leave Mormonism.

  In my experience, the many Ex and lapsed Mormons that I’ve met are quite happy not having any hard lines to dictate their actions and thoughts. I’ve been coloring outside the lines and making pink skies and purple grass for years and it’s suited me quite well.

  In the few essays I’ve read by John it seems he has embraced the opportunities to look at many ideas and options rather than the tight limits that were offered in the LDS experience. It seems a brighter world when you leave the LDS church. Like getting a big box of 64 crayons to color everything with instead of the three cheap crayons that were offered us while in the church.

• 96 James // Sep 11, 2009 at 9:06 am

  wren,

  I’m making assumptions about Lyndon based on his words. He calls mormonism a “boat anchor” and then suggests, through his comment, that anyone who practices mormonism must have a poor mental health.

  Those aren’t my words. Those are his. I wonder if Lyndon has told his “friends” that he thinks they suffer from poor mental health because they are active mormons.

• 97 James // Sep 11, 2009 at 9:10 am

  That’s really my point, Dana. I too know many people who leave mormonism and find the lack of “hard lines” refreshing. I’m happy for them that they’ve found some balance in their life.

  It’s the people who trade one hard line for another (usually on the exact opposite side of the fence) I find very curious. It’s the people who leave mormonism and then decry it as a foul beast unfit for any (sane) human to practice who I find extremely disturbing. They haven’t rid their lives of anything. They’ve just jumped from one side of the fence to the other.

• 98 James // Sep 11, 2009 at 9:15 am

  Oh, and Dana, I don’t allow a church, or anyone, for that matter, to determine how many crayons are in my box.

  I find it interesting how many people blame the church for how they view the world. As if the church forces you into one viewpoint. I’m a member of the church, and I have a very different viewpoint than many members I know. I feel quite confident in my place with God and my faith.

  Just because you have perceptions of how the “church” wants you to think, that doesn’t mean you are forced to think that way. I, and many like me, live happy lives inside the church while still expressing free thought and discourse.

  No one limits how you view the world. Especially not the church. No one forces you to see things one way or the other. Not even the church. No one can make you believe something. Not even the church.

  You are in charge of your own box of crayons. You are in charge of making your world colorful. That’s not the church’s job. It never has been.

• 99 Rainey // Sep 11, 2009 at 9:15 am

  from #94 Dana Dahl:
  “Part of what I find makes being NOT MORMON so rewarding now is that I don’t KNOW anything anymore.”

  I just LOVE hearing that! Isn’t it wonderful how open your mind is to learning and seeing the errors that mislead you when you don’t already know everything?

• 100 Dana Dahl // Sep 11, 2009 at 9:42 am

  For James, I’m glad the LDS church is such a good fit for you. Perhaps you’ve missed out on the myriad of people like myself, especially women who find the culture and doctrine in the church extremely limiting and oppressive.

  You sound like a person who will continue to be very happy and have a perfect niche as an LDS man. May you never grow a uterus and find out that by mere birth you’ve been condemned to a much less glorious life and future.

  I no longer have a uterus nor the chip in the neck that dictates belief, so bohemian women like myself are useless in the LDS organization. I’m sure they were as glad to be rid of me as I was of them.

  Your utopia was my Hell.

• 101 Dana Dahl // Sep 11, 2009 at 9:49 am

  Also for James, it’s not just Lyndon Lamborn that may consider devotion to an organization like the LDS church (which exhibits every aspect of a cult) to be a reflection of mental illness or at least conditioned response.

  My own TBM daughter accused my lack of reverence for the LDS doctrine and practices to possible pre-menopausal loopiness. If that’s the case then many men seem to be pre-menopausal as well because they too feel that the doctrine and culture and leadership are less than worthy of reverence or worship.

  I don’t think Estrogen is going to cure what ails Joseph Smiths numerous illusions or make Tonto a Jew.

• 102 James // Sep 11, 2009 at 9:51 am

  And your current utopia would be my hell, Dana.

  To each his/her own…

• 103 Dana Dahl // Sep 11, 2009 at 9:58 am

  John, I’ve lived in your utopia and understand every nuance of it, even have a periphereal appreciation for some of it. (I just canned 85 quarts of peaches) but it seems a bit pre-emptive for you to make an assessment of my utopia since you’ve never lived here nor seen what I experience. That’s a bit like saying you don’t like sushi but you’ve never tried it. (I’ve tried it and don’t really care for it but would never give a blanket condemnation for sushi since so many others really really enjoy it)

  You should feel very safe in your utopia. Pull the blankets right up to your chin and hole up for the winter. Close the blinds, lock the door, and keep out all the evils and bad people that would try to get you to peek outside the window. You’re safe as long as you keep the wall tall enough.

• 104 James // Sep 11, 2009 at 10:14 am

  I’m assuming your post was directed at me, not John.

  I don’t really know how to talk to you. You accuse me of assuming much, but you do plenty of assuming yourself.

  You assume that I feel perfectly safe, that I never doubt, that I never fear, that I never feel unappreciated, unloved or inadequate.

  You assume that I am afraid of the things you call “evil.” You assume that I fear all the people you call “bad.”

  I never condemned your world. I only said it’s not my cup of tea. I never said sushi is evil and you shouldn’t eat it. I only said I don’t prefer it.

  I can only wish you happiness and prosperity in your mormon-free life. Only your life is not mormon-free. You’re still hanging on to something. You still can’t let something go. I’m not sure why that is.

  I truly want you to be happy in your life without mormonism. What strikes me as odd is the sense I get from you that, deep down, you really don’t want me to be in my life with mormonism.

• 105 wren // Sep 11, 2009 at 10:22 am

  James, I’ve been in your shoes, questioning why people leave the church but never fully “leave” it. It’s proof that you (and me at one time) don’t fully understand how integrated the church is in one’s life. It’s not like leaving a Lutheran church. It’s like leaving an entire way of how one does everything from sun up to sundown. So you may not understand it but I assure you it’s understandable when you’re standing in our shoes.

• 106 John // Sep 11, 2009 at 10:26 am

  I’m going to venture that there are plenty of people who are happy in the security and community of Mormonism who would be utterly miserable outside. I’m good with that.

  What I resented is that so many worked so hard to keep me from playing in the sun and rain.

• 107 Equality // Sep 11, 2009 at 10:40 am

  apple (65):

  Thanks for coming back and answering the questions I asked you. Your position is clearer to me now.

  James:

  Are you the same James who commented extensively on the Lyndon Lamborn article about his excommunication online at the East Valley Tribune site?

• 108 Dana Dahl // Sep 11, 2009 at 10:49 am

  Yes James, I meant you but got my J’s mixed up. I also can’t remember my phone number or SS # and write my zip code in the space for my signature when I write checks. Thanks for correcting me because I really do suck at paying attention to such things. I got it from my mother. She used to call us all “Sister” or “Son” so she wouldn’t have to remember who she was talking to. Sort of like when a guy calls his latest girlfriend, “Babe”.

  John, I sincerely want YOU to stay in the LDS church. They need folks just like you.

  They don’t need folks like me.

  My qualms and contentions with the present day LDS church (and probably why many think we can’t leave the church alone) comes from the fact that out of an immediate family of over 100 wonderful people, I alone am the only one who has stopped being Mormon. If I want to live in my community in S. Utah, if I want to have a relationship with my children and grandkids and mother and nieces and nephews and siblings and neighbors and business associations and the town cop and anyone else that is part of my daily life, I HAVE TO DEAL WITH MORMONISM. Every day, every hour, every way.

  So it isn’t a matter of me not leaving the church alone. I would love it if I could go to a town party and not have a typical LDS blessing crammed down my throat (blaess that the evil doers will be run outta dodge) . I’d love it if when my new grandbaby was born I could just go and visit and not have to be subjected to having to listen to LDS conference while I’m there just because the re-runs are all they watch.

  I’d love it if when I wanted to wash my car on a Sunday morning my neighbors would not give me foul glares just because I’m in a tank top and shorts while they’re driving by on their way to their three hr. droneathon.

  It’s not me. Really, I would be thrilled if I never had to discuss a Mormon event, thought, practice, etc. for the rest of my life.

  I just wanna sip my coffee in peace but the Mormons won’t let me.

• 109 Dana Dahl // Sep 11, 2009 at 10:50 am

  I did it again. I called James John. I’m chronic and incurable. Sorry.

• 110 Equality // Sep 11, 2009 at 11:44 am

  Dana,

  You must be having flashbacks to when one guy says “I am James” and the other guy, in all other respects completely indistinguishable from the first guy, says “I am John.” That’s the only thing those poor dudes got to say in the whole movie!

• 111 Dana Dahl // Sep 11, 2009 at 11:52 am

  Equality, I’m assuming you’re referring to the LDS temple movie. It’s been years since I had to sit through that but YES, I never knew the difference between any of them.

  For the first 15 years of my life I thought three Kennedy brothers were killed within years of each other, Jack, John, and Bobbie. What a tragedy!!!

  How is Jack a nickname for John? They both have four letters so it’s not an issue of shortening the name.

  I was a baby when Jack and John got killed (ironically on the same day) but I was sad for both of them.

  I also went to Alaska and through the fog saw Mt. Mckinley but did not see Denali.

  I still ponder over the lyrics “Bob Bob, Bob Bob-Iran”

• 112 Yet Another John // Sep 11, 2009 at 11:59 am

  Dana, Dana, Dana. Come on, how many typical LDS blessings mention that the “evil doers will be run outta dodge”? And you want the over 100 LDS members of your family change their ways and feelings just to accomodate you? I kinda get the feeling you just want to be offended. Some people would complain if they were hung with a new rope.

  No, I don’t know you, but I think I would like to. Southern Utah is not such a big place. I’ll keep my eye out for the gal (sexist assumption, I know) washing her car in a tank top and shorts on a Sunday morning.

• 113 Dana Dahl // Sep 11, 2009 at 12:03 pm

  Yes, I WANT to be offended and to sin and that’s expressly why I left the LDS church. Like many who leave, it couldn’t possibly be for doctrinal issues or leadership corruption or oppressive culture, bigotry, racism, erronious doctrine or other qualms. It’s because I like coffee. Yes, that one delicious drink has made all the ostricization and judgement worth it.

  If you drive by and see a middle aged woman inappropriately dressed then you’ll know it’s me. Honk and I’ll show you my cleavage.

• 114 Yet Another John // Sep 11, 2009 at 12:17 pm

  “Honk and I’ll show you my cleavage.” I would but one of my wives might take offense. But you’ll recognize me by my long-sleeved, buttoned up shirt and the visible aura of superiority that hovers around me.

• 115 Dana Dahl // Sep 11, 2009 at 12:28 pm

  From what I’ve known of the good Plyg brothers that live in S. Utah they wouldn’t let a little ol’ thing like an offended wife stop them from putting the moves on another potential jewel in their celestial crown.

  With procreative sex being the only option the poor fellers have to keep looking for fresh meat when they’ve got their own flock fleeced or corral of heifers inseminated or buns in the oven or whatever they’re calling it these days.

  One of the crayons that I think is particularly joyful when one leaves mormonism is the “flesh” colored one. Takes on a whole new meaning when procreation isn’t a byproduct of such a fun passtime.

  The vagina, It isn’t a clown car!!

  Hey, that Christiany woman is pregnant with her 19th baby. She’s giving those Muslims a run for their money and doing her part in breeding for Christ. Squeezing them off like a fricking Pez dispenser!!

  The Mormons better get busy if they want to keep up with the Muslims and Born Agains to take over the world.

• 116 Yet Another John // Sep 11, 2009 at 12:48 pm

  Dana,
  It’s really not too hard to get you fired up, is it? Well, it’s been fun. Gotta run and do my part to take over the world.

• 117 Dana Dahl // Sep 11, 2009 at 1:45 pm

  Sorry Yet Another John, that’s not my Fired Up stage. That’s my playful teasing mode. Righteous rants are reserved for those with a week of free time to kill.

  Best wishes in your evil plot to take over the world. Hopefully you find a bevy of lovely ladies to join you in bringing down some spirit children to raise up in righteousness.

  I feel so worthless now. I guess I’ll just have to shuffle off to my art and literature and blogging and make a pie or something to validate my existence. (note to self, learn how to make a pie)

• 118 jose // Sep 11, 2009 at 2:22 pm

  John,

  I first remember hearing a podcast interview with you a few years ago. Decided to follow a to a tip-off from MM. I’m confused that people are wishing you sympathy for you being a victim of excommunication when you plan an excommunication party and compare it to a graduation party. It is contradictory and disingenuous to play the victim card (e.g., juxtaposition of anniversary celebration with summons) and simultaneously celebrate your new-found freedom.

  Anyhow, congratulations and peace to you. Now stop pretending to be a martyr.

• 119 jose // Sep 11, 2009 at 2:24 pm

  I look forward to hearing your side of the excommunication. In some ways, I wish you could have recorded the meeting so we could hear the othersides as well.

• 120 John // Sep 11, 2009 at 2:30 pm

  jose, the long process of excommunication, as much as I wanted the final closure, is a difficult process. It is entirely appropriate wish sympathies on someone going through other trying situations with positive outcomes, like exams and operations.

• 121 John // Sep 11, 2009 at 2:36 pm

  Also, I set up the party because I thought that we would need the emotional support. We wanted to be around people, to know that we had a community of people who cared about us. It ended up being celebratory, too, for which I’m glad.

• 122 Dana Dahl // Sep 11, 2009 at 2:52 pm

  For Jose: I certainly can’t speak for John and what he experienced but having been through a similar “Court of Love” I feel it’s a very good characterization of a Kangaroo court, which really only has two players, the victim and the Judges.

  I’ve yet to see an LDS setting where intellectual integrity, fair play, and honest open discussion were welcomed or allowed, especially in a Kangaroo Court of Love such as John went through. In that realm, then John went in as a lamb to the lions knowing full well that they had already made their decisions and his presence was only a courtesy to them and closure for him.

  It takes a brave soul to face such a foregone arrangement and I consider his actions pretty damn gutsy. Most would just destroy the note, ignore the request for attendence and then summarily avoid any further contact.

  It seems to me he went in loud and proud and took his lumps well.

• 123 James // Sep 11, 2009 at 3:10 pm

  “As a lamb to the lions.”

  Oh good grief…

• 124 Dana Dahl // Sep 11, 2009 at 3:22 pm

  Well James, maybe I can describe the experience this way.

  Imagine you work for a large corporation and you are devoted to helping the company do well in exchange for what they promise you is a big fat bonus at the end of a few decades of service. You keep working, working, working and giving with your big reward in mind.

  Then you find out that the corporation is corrupt and polluting the groundwater and even covering up numerous evidences of toxic dumping. You don’t want to believe it because you have invested several decades into the company but pretty soon the evidences pile up and you can’t deny them any more.

  You try to bring them up to the powers that be and they tell you you imagined it, are wrong to notice, and even if it did happen, they’re justified.

  Finally you realize you can’t represent the company anymore no matter what they promised you.

  You walk away but they believe they still own a part of your pension but won’t give it to you unless you keep their secrets.

  You can’t in good conscience keep the secrets anymore because people are getting hurt and sick from the toxic sludge they’re pumping into the gutter every night behind the tanning plant.

  You cry foul and they tell you you’re a bad person. You cry foul some more and they still won’t fess up and point the fingers back at you.

  Finally they are sick of your efforts to get them to stop poisoning the water system and decide to revoke your pension and infer that you were embezzling the whole time you worked for them.

  The big bosses call a meeting and they’ve already framed you for embezzlement, even though they know they were the ones who poisoned the water system. You know they’re going to charge you with embezzlement and try to humiliate you with feigned kindness and intimidate you with a whole line of stark CEOs all glaring down.

  Now wouldn’t you call it pretty much a lamb to the lions if you were put in such a scenario?

  Lie-ons for the Lord are still Lions.

• 125 eBrown // Sep 11, 2009 at 3:25 pm

  As a lamb and he didn’t even have a gun with him to shoot at his accusers.

• 126 Craig // Sep 11, 2009 at 3:25 pm

  That was an excellent metaphor for how many of us have been perceive our handling by the LdS church, and I think, a good representation of how John particularly was treated.

• 127 wren // Sep 11, 2009 at 4:10 pm

  Jose, according to things John has written on Twitter and this blog, “The other side” was very cordial. Don’t confuse John’s experience with that of others.

  “…congratulations and peace to you. Now stop pretending to be a martyr.”

  You’re very rude. John already addressed this quite specifically and indicated that is not his intent. Next time you opt to use sarcasm instead of civility consider this:

  “A sarcastic person has a superiority complex that can be cured only by the honesty of humility.” – Lawrence G. Lovasik

• 128 Rainey // Sep 11, 2009 at 4:26 pm

  Why is it that people who not only think that someone needs to be forcibly severed from a relationship also think that they can determine the manner in which the one summoned needs to frame his experience when it done to him? Was there ever any question just who would make the determination that severed the ties or that it was a mutual and equal playing field?

  A tad dictatorial maybe?, to prescribe the appropriate emotional and social decorum that follows? But, as everyone has said, this is an emotion-laden experience not only for the principles but for those who watch vicariously — even from some of the internet seats apparently. So it’s possible it’s more understandable than it appears to this non-Mormon.

  Still, making the accusation that the person evicted from their former life by the pronouncement of others is “playing a victim card” for not meeting the spectator’s concept of the required degree of contrition or depression is harder to defend, even in the abstract.

  I think someone wanted it to actually draw more blood than it did.

• 129 Kiskilili // Sep 11, 2009 at 4:45 pm

  Ah, I wish I could have come to the party! But I’m glad other people were there to celebrate with you. Cheers!

• 130 Dana Dahl // Sep 11, 2009 at 5:05 pm

  Again, this is just my limited experience and perspective but I’ve heard many others validate what I felt so here goes,

  Membership in the church of Jesus Christ comes with a whole lifestyle and consuming set of activities. It isn’t just a religion, it’s a culture, a corporation, the whole of one’s time while in the church.

  It’s the company store and the whole family buys their goods there, pays whatever price is set, and accepts the limits of the goods offered.

  So if you want to leave or even suggest that there might be a better way there is a whole bevy of involved people that will resist or shun you for such a simple thing.

  You can leave the company but they still own your house and your family and your car and all that you worked for.

  If you make waves they’ll turn your family against you and your family will see that they can either join you away from their support source and flail on their own, or accept the rules and prices set by the store owners.

  So you make the choice and leave the company and slowly find out that there’s a lot of other stores with better prices, more variety, more opportunity.

  You miss your family but you can only visit them on the terms set by the company they still work for and eat only the products the company dictates are appropriate.

  The company only offers stale oatmeal, day after day, year after year and the price is 10% of your income.

  Even if your family wants to try something else they know that the price would be expulsion from the company owned house, loss of transportation and other supports, so they make excuses for the company and defend it because the investment is just so high.

  Once you’ve experienced self employment it’s very hard to go back to working for “The man” and “the man” has little use for independent minded folks who have seen the world outside the company grounds. Having independent folks is disruptive and causes folks to ask questions.

  It’s just better for the Company to villify the one who left rather than look into why they left.

  Now I look back wistfully on my big family of 100 and wish I could offer them some really good granola but they’re so conditioned to believing that the stale oatmeal is the best they’ve ever had, even though they’ve never tried anything else that they look at my delicious granola with it’s bits of cranberries and slices of almonds and think it’s just downright sinful.

  Oh well, too bad for them.

  Some folks just like stale oatmeal.

• 131 Lyndon Lamborn // Sep 11, 2009 at 7:18 pm

  Nice to hear from you again, James. Let me just add a bit to what Dana said to be crystal clear.

  Yes the LDS church is a boat anchor to human health and happiness for most people. I think virtually all who are willing and able to falsify it will agree that part of their faith evolution felt like cutting the chain to the boat anchor.

  Mormonism is a memetic virus, and meets the criteria for being a destructive mind control entity, encouraging suppression of the authentic self, ever increasing dependence on the group, and top-down obedience. Mormonism has evolved to be very efficient at preying upon our innate cognititve human biases as well. The long term psychological ill effects of destructive mind control are well known, and abundantly evident among LDS membership – at least as I see the data.

  Understanding mind control tactics and how religion reinforces human biases was a huge help to me in my recovery from LDS mind control. It helped me realize that I was (dare I say?) a relatively normal human being to have fallen so deeply and become so completely assimilated by Mormonism for so long. Recovering from 45 years of mind control was not a simple undertaking. And it is a recovery process, that happens in stages. In fact, I wrote a book called “Standing for Something More” which summarizes my findings to help others speed up their recovery. In fact, writing the book was part of my recovery, and was recommended by a therapist. While I did not realize it at the time, but speaking to my former high council was also part of my recovery.

  Dana used a Company analogy, I will use the rabid dog analogy. If you and your children were bitten by a rabid dog, do you just say “That’s life!” and go on? Hardly. You seek treatment, go through a recovery and healing stage, and call animal control to try to make the neighborhood safe again. You might even participate in a “Rabid Dog Awareness” group on-line to do your part to help the human race. That is all we are doing as Ex-Mos. Helping each other and the human race by pointing out what is obvious to those who leave.

  In the second verse of the song, “The Man’s Too Strong”, Dire Straits accurately portrays corporate religion in general and Joseph Smith Jr. in particular as follows:
  I have legalized robbery, called it a belief.
  I have run with the money, and hid like a thief.
  I have rewritten history with my armies and my crooks.
  Invented memories, I did burn all the books.
  And I can still hear his laughter, I can still hear his song;
  The man’s too big, the man’s too strong.

  To amplify this excellent montage of how humanity justifies its conduct using religion (which I will refer to as “faith” in this poem), I add the following:

  An Ode to Dire Straits
  We have legalized robbery and called it faith, but that is not all;
  We have exalted gullibility and called it faith.
  We have censored the voice of reason, embraced delusions, and called it faith.
  We have granted power to demons, feared the imaginary, and called it faith.
  We have sanctioned discrimination and called it faith.
  We have numbed our intellect with conformity and called it faith.
  We have justified suppression of information and perpetuated lies and called it faith.
  We have condoned inhumanity and called it faith.
  Our elderly have abandoned life in preference for death and we called it faith.
  We have surrendered our free will and called it faith.
  We have declared ourselves the Chosen Ones and spat on our neighbor and called it faith.
  We have apologized for reality and called it faith.
  We have traded sanity for security and called it faith.
  We have abused our children with guilt and shame and unbridled fear and called it faith.
  We have demeaned our women, esteemed them as property, and called it faith.
  We have laid waste to families and called it faith.
  I sit on the sand and feel the rhythm of the waves.
  I lay down my burden and watch it dissolve with the tide.
  The water and the sand and the sky become one.
  I will study faith no more.

• 132 Dana Dahl // Sep 11, 2009 at 8:57 pm

  See, I told ya’ll that Lyndon is a smarty pants. Lyndon, that is a very telling poem. Perhaps the reason so much of what you say resonates with those of us who have left the church is that it exemplifies our individual experiences in words many of us can barely string together.

  I have the rich but occasionaly sad experience of reading dozens of exit stories each week. The common theme among every one of them is the loss of self worth while in the LDS church and the instant feeling of hope when they leave.

  I’ve met people that are twenty years away from having had Mormon ties and still feel the guilt and shame that was continually drilled into their heads and hearts while in the church. Two decades to undo the damage inflicted by this cult.

  I’m only at the halfway point and am feeling more and more whole every week. Learning to make new friends with the very backward and infantalized communication skills fostered in the LDS culture has been difficult. I find that shedding those poor habits is very complicated since I’ve not had balanced and intellectually honest methods modeled for me. I find many former LDS who struggle similarly.

  When those of us with huge extended families still deeply entrenched in the church are out here on our own, longing for the deep connections but gunshy about the manipulations exacted on us while in those LDS families and settings, it helps considerably to have places where we can gather (online and in real life) and share our common histories, our complex challenges, humor, lightness, and eventually find that there are many more wonderful things to discover BEYOND MORMONISM. I’m hoping to get there soon. I can’t bring my family but I can make new connections.

• 133 John // Sep 13, 2009 at 6:09 am

  Nylon Mesh Scoopneck, I’m sorry that your comment didn’t make it out of moderation sooner-for some reason it got caught by and languished in the spam filter.

  You ask some good questions, which I may respond to in a post soon.

• 134 Sunday in Outer Blogness: Truth and Consequences Edition! | Main Street Plaza // Sep 13, 2009 at 7:10 am

  [...] big news this week is John Remy’s excommunication for apostasy!! And he’s not the only one who’s feeling the heat this week for [...]

• 135 Bob // Sep 14, 2009 at 10:38 am

  Sorry to be a fair-weather follower, but I was wondering if you’re going to post any more details about your court. As someone who criticizes “The Lord’s Anointed” in my own blog, just wondering what to expect if the axe comes my way at some point.

• 136 James // Sep 15, 2009 at 8:53 am

  Lyndon, I believe that your posts are a boat anchor to my soul. They are a memetic virus that seeks to control my thoughts and wash my brain of rational thought.

  I shall now create an online message board to help others recover from the ill-effects of reading your posts. I think I’ll call it ex-Lyndos.com

• 137 John // Sep 15, 2009 at 8:58 am

  James, your latest comment is starting to cross into trollishness. They’re designed to provoke a specific individual, and the response will likely be less about the thread and more about responding to you.

  Please keep your comments civil.

• 138 James // Sep 15, 2009 at 8:59 am

  John,

  I see satire is completely lost on you. This disappoints me greatly, especially since you are an aspiring writer.

  Sadly,

  James

• 139 John // Sep 15, 2009 at 9:01 am

  Satire is tricky to do right. I experience my own failures at it all the time.

• 140 Lyndon Lamborn // Sep 15, 2009 at 12:43 pm

  I am truly honored, James. Let me know when the website is up and running! Here is some stuff you can put up on there…

  I was just thinking abt what the LDS church would have to do to eliminate mind control tactics on my way to work this morning. It would be such a breath of fresh air to the membership, IMO. Here is a partial list:
  1. Eliminate threatening prophesies. Declare that Christ is not coming again, no impending Armageddon, the earth is not going to be bathed in blood and war in the near future, etc.
  2. Eliminate preoccupation with money. Tithing reduced to 1%, vast financial holdings sold and proceeds donated to humanitarian efforts, etc.
  3. Eliminate secrecy. Publish full financials annually, all meetings open to public, temple ceremonies made public, open archives, etc.
  4. No more shrines for the elite. Every member can attend the temple, get the second annointing, etc.
  5. Eliminate privacy infringement. No more confessions, youth interviews, annual PPI’s, etc.
  6. Remove hyper-purity demands & guilt. Word of Wisdom is just advice, advise abstinence early, but emphasize safe sex above all, masturbation and fornication not mortal sins.
  7. Remove illusion of certainty and foster tolerance. Teach that warm feelings do not equate to sure knowledge. Eliminate testimony meetings.
  8. Remove any requirement for top-down obedience, remove disciplinary action process.
  9. Remove information censorship, teaching the membership the whole history. Reward honest members with an honest rendering of church doctrines, history, etc.
  10. Eliminate ‘heavenly soldiers for God’ theme in song and in lesson materials.

  There is more, but this would be a good start.

• 141 Craig // Sep 15, 2009 at 12:49 pm

  That would indeed be an excellent start. Maybe in 50 years Mormonism will have progressed enough to start on that.

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