107 responses so far ↓

• 1 Melissa // Sep 7, 2009 at 8:40 am

  no argument, just a hug.

  hug.

• 2 Elissa Minor Rust // Sep 7, 2009 at 9:01 am

  I’ll be thinking about you and your family this week. Remember that there are many of us who think you are brave for attending and defending your actions, and there is a whole community of us who support you.

  Will you be taking witnesses?

• 3 Matt // Sep 7, 2009 at 9:03 am

  You’re right. This was all inevitable, but still, very crappy timing. I know you’ll make the best of it, John. If there’s an opportunity to help in any way, I’m ready.

• 4 jefeinla // Sep 7, 2009 at 10:00 am

  Self aggrandizing spoiled brat in my opinion.

  You say you don’t value the membership and yet here you are milking its potential loss. One wonders what you will talk about otherwise?

  Knock yourself out.

• 5 Elise // Sep 7, 2009 at 10:11 am

  I love Taco Rosa. Great happy hour there.

  Sorry to hear the weekend had a “down” ending. We are sending positive thoughts your way this week….

• 6 Church Quits Mind on Fire // Sep 7, 2009 at 10:31 am

  [...] wondered what an invitation to attend a Mormon church “court of love” might look like, wander over here and take a [...]

• 7 minxlj // Sep 7, 2009 at 10:39 am

  I’m afraid I’ll have to admit my ignorance here and admit I know nothing about their procedures – what kind of disciplinary action are they talking about?

• 8 Ryan // Sep 7, 2009 at 10:48 am

  It’s a drag when drama becomes a part of our world when we least expect it and when we don’t have much time and energy for it. In the middle of it though, your decision to confront this with integrity is admirable, and an example to many. Sending positive thoughts your way, and let me know if I (we) can be of any help.

• 9 Jonathan Blake // Sep 7, 2009 at 10:54 am

  Good luck.

  I’ve always wondered how they would react if I plunked down an audio recorder on the table, or if my friend started taking notes.

  Having said that, I would probably just send them a resignation letter stating my case and my feelings and save everyone the hassle. That’s not to say I feel that’s the “right” way to handle it, just how I would like to handle it.

• 10 John // Sep 7, 2009 at 11:01 am

  Thanks, everyone, for your kind words. A little feeling expressed goes a surprisingly long way.

  Elissa, it’s that community to which I feel allegiance now. I’m glad for its support and want to be a support to it. As for witnesses, Jana will be joining me.

  minxlj, the action would probably be excommunication, which in practical terms is a revoking of church membership. From most faithful members’ perspectives, this has serious eternal consequences. My primary concern has to do with the emotional/social/symbolic impact to Mormons close to me and Jana, and the potential to censor open public discussion between Mormons via the web.

• 11 John Roberts // Sep 7, 2009 at 11:30 am

  I’m always somewhat astounded that some people become emotional and feel unduly treated when called before church disciplinary boards. For hell’s sake, if you don’t believe the religion, get out and leave it alone. Of course Joseph Smith said that this is unlikely. Once you’ve left neutral ground, he told one stalwart, you can never go back. In your case, you shine brightly in your own small world and then you just sputter a few times and burn out, and no one will remember you or your cause.

  I don’t think there’s anything particularly brave or valiant in what you’re doing. The world is full of religions and fighting them is senseless and puerile. It’s done for a sense of personal vengeance and pettiness, and a feeling of vindictiveness. I’ve read similar things lately on former Jehovah’s Witness sites.

  Right now, you’re riding high on a martyr complex and no doubt feeling hurt and put out upon. You feel like you’re the victims and that whatever you do to get back at the church is justified, and there’s a sense of obligation about it. You’re compelled to write the bitter jabs or you’ll be eaten from the inside.

  I predict you’ll seek out every word of sympathy and solace as a means of reinforcement (I’ve seen it happen a million times). You’ll laugh off messages like this, but they’ll end up bothering you more than you let on. Every former Mormon I’ve ever known seeks constant reinforcement for apostasy because deep down they’ll always wonder if they did the right thing. That’s what keeps them going in writing anti-Mormon stuff. They’ve gotta have those messages of reinforcement and they become like drugs.

  You may just think I’m blowing smoke, but I’m not. You’re gonna keep changing, though you won’t see it or recognize it as much as your friends and associates do. After your excommunication, no one will really care unless you keep smacking the tar baby, which is what you’ll probably do. But please…don’t play the victim. It’s just stupid and disingenuous.

  Your best bet would be to take some time off and figure if you really want to go down this path, because once you start down it, there’s no coming back. People like Oliver Cowdery came back because their hearts never really left. He was retired, sick and otherwise well off, but he left everything and trekked out to Utah to rejoin the saints and beg their forgiveness.

  The thing about Mormonism, Judaism and ancient Christianity was that they all had witnesses. Muhammad didn’t. Neither did Ann Lee, William Ellis Foy, Ellen G. White or any other visionary. Cowdery was one of those witnesses and he repented, came back to the church and died maintaining what he’d seen and heard. He didn’t even want his old office and standing; any priesthood would do.

  I’ve seen what apostasy’s done to people and I’d just be certain this is what you want. But again, please don’t play the victim.

• 12 Rico Babalu // Sep 7, 2009 at 11:49 am

  “Every [baptized] Mormon I’ve ever known seeks constant reinforcement for apostasy because deep down they’ll always wonder if they did the right thing. That’s what keeps them going in writing [positive] Mormon stuff. They’ve gotta have those messages of reinforcement and they become like drugs.

  “You may just think I’m blowing smoke, but I’m not. You’re gonna keep changing, though you won’t see it or recognize it as much as your friends and associates do. After your [baptism], no one will really care unless you keep smacking the tar baby, which is what you’ll probably do. But please…don’t play the victim. It’s just stupid and disingenuous.

  “Your best bet would be to take some time off and figure if you really want to go down this path [of membership in the LDS Church], because once you start down it, there’s no coming back. [Unless the leaders decide otherwise.]

  “I’ve seen what [baptism's] done to people and I’d just be certain this is what you want. But again, please don’t play the victim.”

  Sorry, John Roberts, it can cut both ways.

  John Remy – all the best to you. Life without Mormonism isn’t bad. In fact, it’s rather liberating and good.

• 13 Rico Babalu // Sep 7, 2009 at 11:50 am

  Added:

  “The thing about Mormonism, Judaism and ancient Christianity was that they all had witnesses.”

  So did UFO abductions and Bigfoot.

• 14 Jana // Sep 7, 2009 at 11:51 am

  JohnRoberts:
  FYI, We did leave and we asked our leaders for ‘no contact.’ They’re the ones who keep intruding on our front step. We haven’t even come near theirs.

• 15 G // Sep 7, 2009 at 12:07 pm

  I side with mr blake. bring a tape recorder.

  and, btw… they really should have been more specific in their charges, if they are expecting this to be a ‘court’ where you can hope to defend yourself. but that’s just my own opinion on their methods.

  I’m sending you and your family lots of love and strength.
  (hugs)

• 16 Andrew Callahan // Sep 7, 2009 at 12:10 pm

  John,
  I got a very similar letter almost exactly a year ago, but in my case they backed down and never took any action.

  I wish you the best of luck with this, and if I can be of any assistance, please let me know.

  Best wishes.

• 17 Fully Caffeinated // Sep 7, 2009 at 12:33 pm

  Hugs. I’m sorry that they have decided to take this path. Just wanted to lend my support to you and your family.

  @JohnRoberts – I would say so much but it would obviously be wasting time to write it since you obviously “know” it all already. Good luck with that superiority complex.

• 18 Meryl // Sep 7, 2009 at 12:49 pm

  Hugs and good luck for the disciplinary hearing.
  Also, glad to hear Gameboy had a good time! We thought so, but sometimes it’s hard to tell

• 19 Equality // Sep 7, 2009 at 12:55 pm

  Chief Justice,

  My man, you reveal yourself not only as arrogant but also as ignorant. Many religious leaders, including some you name, had witnesses “bear testimony” of remarkable spiritual manifestations. And James Strang had witnesses of the plates he translated, some of whom were among the witnesses Joseph Smith had (including many members of the Smith family).

  As for the emphatically unsympathetic tone of your comments, I will say only this: with representatives like you, the LDS church really doesn’t need critics like me to discourage people from joining–I need only point them to your own words as the best testament to the “fruits” Mormonism produces: judgmentalism, condescension, insensitivity, rudeness, etc. Not exactly the fruits of the spirit spoken of by Paul.

• 20 crazywomancreek // Sep 7, 2009 at 1:22 pm

  Ok, I finally got it. I’ve been having a really hard time pin pointing my reaction to this situation since you first wrote about it.
  I don’t click with folks who believe you were asking for it, must be seeking martyrdom/attention/validation. But I also don’t click with the crowd who thinks this is wholly unfair/ you are being victimized/bullied.
  And I just got why.
  I think your thinking is stuck in the paradigm where the Church is the monolithic Authority and you are the Recipient of that Authority.
  But the truth is that it was always a relationship. You both had your own agency that you had to navigate together. You made choices, had realizations that led you to leave the Church as an institution behind, even while forging new ways of being a cultural Mo.
  And the Church (via the Stake) is making a choice about what to do with that. And it seems to me that to protest their right to do so, not only ignores *their* agency, it also negates the relationship. It seems to me in saying, “they should not be pursuing this,” what you are actually doing is falling back into the role of passive recipient. Which, of course, you are not. The power they think they have over you was only ever granted by your consent. Which you have withdrawn. So now you can go in as an equal, negotiate the cessation of your contract and emerge with all of the brilliance, passion and insight that you entered the court with; a beautiful wife by your side is just icing on that cake. Seriously, your life is just an embarrassment of riches and this is a little sidestep in a really gorgeous dance. Embrace it.

• 21 Rich // Sep 7, 2009 at 2:59 pm

  John, good luck my friend. Use this as an opportunity to ask all the questions that need asking; hey, you’ll have a captive audience! Write them down ahead of time so you can keep your head through the emotions. Keep your cool and remain articulate, thoughtful and civil. Please know that you will always be welcome in my home, regardless of what the folks in Newport Beach decide to do with you…

• 22 catbonny // Sep 7, 2009 at 3:06 pm

  i love you guys and thats all i have to say is that I will be glad to buy you a few rounds when this all over.

• 23 CV Rick // Sep 7, 2009 at 4:22 pm

  Good luck to you John. When I got my invitation, it included the phrase, “court of love,” in it. Interesting that they don’t include that now. Keep good notes, write the story well, it’s a once in a lifetime experience.

• 24 sarah k. // Sep 7, 2009 at 4:41 pm

  Ah, I remember the good old days of knowing everyone’s motivations for everything, especially for “apostatizing.” Thanks for bringing me back, John Roberts.

  John and Jana, peace be with you.

• 25 amelia // Sep 7, 2009 at 5:03 pm

  i’m so sorry they have actually followed up on this, john. i had hoped it had died down when you didn’t hear anything for so long. even when i try to think this through from a believing member’s perspective (which i can still conjure up, though it’s not wholly mine), it makes no sense to me.

  i’m also sorry that the world is populated by jackasses like john roberts who feel it’s appropriate to spew bitterness and vindictiveness towards someone who has simply attempted to live with integrity and honesty. but i’m equally glad to see the support and love so many of your readers and friends are extending; please count me among them. and if there is anything i can do, please let me know.

• 26 Kelly Ann // Sep 7, 2009 at 5:15 pm

  John and Jana, my thoughts are with you.

• 27 John Dehlin // Sep 7, 2009 at 5:29 pm

  Love you John. So sorry for all this.

• 28 LdChino // Sep 7, 2009 at 6:25 pm

  Nitrous oxide. That’s what’s called for here. A can strapped to each calf. Nobody the wiser. Until it’s too late.

  Drama? Meh. Belly laughs with former brethren? Oh yeah…

  Oh Yeah… Oh Yeah
  The moon… beautiful
  The sun… even more beautiful
  Oh Yeah… Oh Yeah… Oh Yeah
  Beautiful
  Oh Yeah… Oh Yeah…
  Good time

  I’m dating myself with the Ferris Bueller reference, aren’t I? Whatever. I’m right about the N2O.

• 29 SEK // Sep 7, 2009 at 8:17 pm

  I agree with John Roberts–wait a second, no I don’t. I’m constitutionally incapable of agreeing with anyone named “John Roberts.” Much love from Meg and I in Corona, and we hope this didn’t spoil your anniversary in any substantive way.

• 30 Paul // Sep 7, 2009 at 8:19 pm

  Sep 7, 2009 Blog comment and Response

  Strange phenomenon, serendipity.

  For some reason in some past Google life I came across your web site and book-marked it. Today I saw it in my bookmark folder referenced under some name and BINGO I discover this blog entry you wrote here about being under threat of excommunication AND you live just down the road from me.

  Now why is this interesting? Because I have been quite successful in having emotionally left the Mormon church (stating “Mormon church” instead of “the church” further indicates my emotional detachment). The Mormon church is rife with what is typified by the likes of one person who has commented here, namely “John Roberts.” And this begs the question: What kind of a church fosters and cultivates “Christians” of this particular ilk? There are so many of them in the “Mormon church.” This posturing of arrogance, even gleeful gloating over the fact that someone is in a crisis, be it of faith, or not.

  Close to the original quote without taking the time to look it up: “The nearer we get to God the more we are disposed to look with compassion upon perishing souls,” said Joseph Smith. “Oh, there will be “compassion,” it will be a “court of love,” some might say. To which I say, “Rubbish, poppy-cock, and you know what else.” John, I can’t speak for you (mainly because I don’t know you, or what this whole affair is about), but for many reasons the “Mormon Church” for me, after a life-time of involvement, has become a non-issue. I just don’t really care about it anymore. And this surprises me to say this because I want to care about a church that has the potential and in fact even manages to actualize a great deal of humanitarian and other good for the world, the community, young families, and the individual. But I just ran out of steam, mainly because of the intolerance, arrogance and Nazisistic callousness of so many leaders and other members at large in said church. I came to the stark realization that after endowing this church with countless hours of service, financial and emotional support and sacrifice, that in the end, “it,” i.e., this church would toss you out in a heart beat; it would in fact treat you like a piece of toilet paper soiled by their own egregious excrement and flush you down the toilet without a second thought. Or there may be a thought — the satisfying one you have after having had a good bowel movement.

  You are not asking for advice, but I’ll give you my opinion: I don’t know enough about you or of the situation you are in, but if you are not or have not been a rabid rabble rouser out to “get the church,” but rather just some fellow who speaks his mind about the Mormon church regardless of being a current member on the books, then I wouldn’t empower your stake, so-called “authorities.” I just would carry on like you are and dismiss them and ignore their “court,” which to me is farcical. “Court” my a$$. I have served on them. These men have no more authority over you than what you allow them to have. Do not let them seize your mind and take control of your emotional well being and who want to disgrace you UNLESS you are sure you can’t ever “leave it alone,” UNLESS your past membership in this church has taken such a hold within you that to become ostracized from it will leave you bitter and filled with turmoil.

  Many Mormons, like this fellow “John Roberts,” have a tendency to paint everyone with the same brush. I would venture to say there are MILLIONS of former Mormons (excommunicated or not) that have successfully left the Mormon church in the dust of their memories, without experiencing any angst whatsoever. People like John Dehlin, (for whom I have IMMENSE feelings of respect and gratitude for who he is and what he has done) found that he could not leave the church FOR HIS REASONS, but you may be coming from a totally different angle within the circle of our human landscape, a circle, I might add, which has an infinite number of degrees and not just 360 of them.

  John, “God is love.” If you are desiring to approximate His kind of love with TRUE Christian attributes of comportment, thoughts and speech, then don’t sweat the Mormon church if it hassles and threatens you. God is so much more than the Mormon church. Many God-like tenets, ideas and even some rituals are within the Mormon church, but it does not encompass the whole enterprise of God’s dominions and more importantly, care for His children. This truly is what I have come to believe, even realize. Be good by doing and speaking good. “Be wise as a serpent, but meek as a lamb,” and cease thinking that you have something to fear in your eternity.

  Just my thoughts. Of course you need to come to your own conclusions about this matter. God bless you.

• 31 roentgen // Sep 7, 2009 at 8:21 pm

  Why bother going at all? It is a bunch of hooey just like any other religion. I wouldn’t give any cult the time of day.

  It seems like you’re expending a lot of energy on something that is meaningless.

  Who cares what somebody else thinks about what you are doing. Nobody has the right to call you to a ‘court’.

  I can’t imagine why you would give it the time of day, much less go to defend yourself.

  Live your life.

• 32 John Remy is being excommunicated at Mormon Matters // Sep 7, 2009 at 8:27 pm

  [...] John Remy (an old friend of Mormon Matters) is being excommunicated on Wednesday for apostasy. [...]

• 33 Mormon Heretic // Sep 7, 2009 at 8:39 pm

  This is my first time on your blog. I came over here from a link at Mormon Matters. Can I ask why they think you’re in apostasy?

• 34 DarylS // Sep 7, 2009 at 8:43 pm

  I found the invitation interesting in that no specific charges are listed beyond the broad and ultimately vague charge of ‘apostasy’. How could you credibly prepare a defence in the absence of specific charges?

  This mild oversight shows Mormon justice for what it is – a mockery. It masquerades under the name a ‘court’ but only very vaguely resembles one. At least they did extend you the courtesy of witnesses for your defense.

  Just to jag them about, and respond with a request for the specific charges so that you can be reasonably prepared to mount a defence. And advise that you regard the failure to do so, as an admission that they do not intend the Court to be anything more than a shame and in effect a show trial.

  Even if you are not rattled by the prospect of a trial, insist on being treated with a bit of common respect, even if you arrive at the Court and as soon as the charge is read, declare that you have no intention of defending yourself against a vague and indefensible charge, and honouring the court with respect it clearly does not deserve.

  Now that should make for some great copy!

• 35 Craig // Sep 7, 2009 at 8:44 pm

  *Hugs* indeed.

  I respect you immensely John.

  The first thing I have to say is that I’m there with you.

  I’m outraged and offended on your behalf, and I well know the pain and disappointment of being diciplined for daring to think for yourself. I hope that you’re able to gain something positive from the experience (as I was from mine) and that your experience is able to bring more awareness of the censorship and suppression of truth that exists within the church.

• 36 Clay Whipkey // Sep 7, 2009 at 8:49 pm

  @johnremy, much love being transmitted to you right now.

  BTW, which Taco Rosa did y’all hit up? My family and I were just in the OC this weekend and had dinner at the Taco Rosa directly across from the Newport Beach temple. If you went to the same location, perhaps the Remy family awesomeness spirit lingered there, because my meal was delish!

• 37 mirele // Sep 7, 2009 at 9:10 pm

  Resign first. Steal their thunder.

  If you resign, you’re legally not a part of the organization and whatever they do is like spitting in the wind. Do it tomorrow. Do it five minutes before the court. Hand it to the Stake President. And then walk away. That’s a very hard thing to do, but, frankly, ecclesiastical abuse is still abuse and those who defend it are *jerks*.

• 38 John // Sep 7, 2009 at 9:16 pm

  CWC, I’m still mulling over your response. I think I’m already with you; what complicates my position, and why I’m carefully considering each action, has to do with a) impact on Jana and my Mormon friends, and b) the context of blogging/discussing the church in general. I don’t see this as merely an interaction between me at the local stake, but it takes place in a wider context. People will define this in various ways, but I see it largely as a tension between the value of transparency and open discussion on one side (mine) and the value of secrecy and the control of information in the interest of preserving institutional power. (The rest of you don’t have to agree with me, but this is how I’ve experienced much of my conflict with the Church.) I’m causing as much drama as the Stake is, and I don’t see myself as a helpless victim in this situation. As others have pointed out, I could’ve quietly resigned months ago (a perfectly respectable path to take). So you’re absolutely right–the stake and I are writing this drama, but it’s taking place on a cultural stage much bigger than either of us.

• 39 John // Sep 7, 2009 at 9:25 pm

  Again, thanks for the hugs, the love and support, booze and nitrous oxide.

  Clay, it is the one and the same Taco Rosa. I bike past it several times per week–let us know next time you’re in town, if you’d like us to join you!

  DarylS, great minds think alike! We essentially cross-posted in a way–I sent an email to my stake pres. essentially asking for more detail. I may post the content of the message later. While I’m expecting a show trial (in that it pretends to be something more fair than it actually is), I am also ready to give these men (some of whom I still respect, personally) a chance. Maybe I’ll be pleasantly surprised, and they’ll prove my expectations wrong.

  SEK, it’s so very good to hear from you desert nomads. Thank you, and I hope that all is well in the Crown.

• 40 Ray // Sep 7, 2009 at 9:31 pm

  I’m sorry to hear this, John – very sorry.

  Having said that, I do have to point out that this was a mutual decision – and that you chose to disassociate with the organization. Given that choice, how in the world can the organization making your decision a formal change in the relationship be unjust or unfair? You chose to leave; they simply are ratifying that choice.

  If you have not written about the church lately, why should this change that? Why would you intentionally stir the pot once you took it off the stove and walked away from it? That isn’t healthy, and I hope you reconsider that choice – if only to be a good example to your friends of turning the other cheek, but more because of the growth that I believe occurs when someone resists initial impulses and intentionally chooses charity. Do you want what you naturally perceive to be justice, or do you want a chance to become even more Christ-like – to show your loved ones the proper way to react and respond no matter how you feel about this emotionally?

  Again, I am sorry to hear of this – truly sorry. I hope you understand what I am trying to say. I just hope you are able to handle this with grace and charity – and emerge an even better man than before you received the letter.

• 41 sylvia // Sep 7, 2009 at 9:32 pm

  good luck.

• 42 John // Sep 7, 2009 at 9:39 pm

  A number of you have questioned why I feel an excommunication would be unjust. I want to reiterate, there is a distinction between how I feel about my relationship to the Church (which I feel is acting understandably in trying to cut ties with me) and the feelings that my wife and friends have towards the Church for taking action against me.

  Also, I do not feel victimized by this threat of disciplinary action. I’m just dreading the drama, the emotional drain, and time sink. Not the same thing. I’m whining. Bad me.

  Ok. Good night, internet people.

• 43 Fully Caffeinated // Sep 7, 2009 at 9:40 pm

  A person’s exit from the mormon church is a very personal thing from what I have experienced. The right way to go isn’t necessarily the right way for someone else. I feel that it should be done in such a way that it brings closure for the person leaving. Who am I to judge what is best for you and your family in this case? Go out the way you want to. This isn’t a walk of shame. It’s a walk of empowerment.

• 44 Ryan // Sep 7, 2009 at 9:44 pm

  Like Craig, I have immense respect for you.

  Would that this process was akin to cutting up a membership card(not the Star Wars Fan Club, obviously, I could *never* leave that organization) but belonging to a church like the LDS church comes with it hooks into our lives that go deeper than belief. Hooks made of familial obligations, friendships and cultural inertia. Hooks that are painful in just the anticipation of them being pulled out.

  I still have many of these hooks yet to come out but having intelligent people like you and Melinda (and everyone on twitter like Craig, Sean, Ryan) around who have gone through these things is something I am extremely grateful for.

• 45 Enigma825 // Sep 7, 2009 at 9:44 pm

  Good luck John. I received a similar letter on Valentine’s day. I decided the church wasn’t worth my time and formally resigned the next day, mailing a resignation letter and delivering one to that Bishop. I did nothing worng and did not feel like I had to defend myself in anyway. I was already free mentally from the institution and I wanted my exit to be on my terms and not theirs. I didn’t want to be branded as an excommunicated mormon because that holds more stigmatism than one who leaves voluntarily. I admire those tremendously who head into the lion’s den to face the liars and followers of Joseph Smith because it really takes some guts to jump through those hoop and answer question they don’t have any RIGHT to be asking.

  So Good Luck to you and your family. I hope it will be as easy a journey as possible for you.

• 46 Molly // Sep 7, 2009 at 10:14 pm

  John, first and foremost, you are speaking for the silent group of disaffected Mormons who can’t express their frustrations or reasons for unbelief because it comes at too high a price — usually being cut off by family and friends. I fall into this category and would have renounced my membership long ago if I didn’t know that it would mean being kicked out with my family. Many of my cousins and aunts stopped speaking to me because I didn’t rally to the cause of Prop 8. If that was the cost for failing to be a zealot, how will my family treat me if I’m ever exposed as a nonbeliever?

  And to jefeinla — (Nice moniker by the way. Very priesthoodish of you to want to be “El Jefe.”) Your response is exactly the sort of puritanical unkindness that all to often characterizes Mormons who fail to think before they speak. (Like my relatives.) How can saying something like that serve any good? Being so hostile couldn’t possibly make John feel comfortable coming back, if that’s what your hope would be as an LDS member. It also sets a very bad example for how Mormons should behave when someone displeases them, and makes you look like an intolerant zealot to outsiders. If that wasn’t your intention, then it means you’ve made the mistake of speaking in anger. Either way, being so harsh is hardly representative of what Mormons constantly claim to be — loving, kind, and compassionate to others.

  Wanna try turning the other cheek, buddy? Or at least refraining from being hostile?

• 47 MoHoHawaii // Sep 8, 2009 at 12:10 am

  You’re not really on trial. (A show trial is not a trial; it’s theater.) Even with its flaws, the process might be an opportunity to share your perspective and perhaps to influence a few leaders.

  Here is an account of a person who took this approach: http://gayldsactor.blogspot.com/2009/06/excommunication-or-up-and-away.html

  Good luck to you.

• 48 Gwennaëlle // Sep 8, 2009 at 12:26 am

  I have been excommunicated and I came back to the church. There is a HUGE lesson I have learned from my excommunication. Although I was the one who was “wrong” the reason why I may come back someday (and I did) was the fact that the bishop handled everything beautifully and sent the right message to me: excommunication is not about banning someone in the church and should not be. It is about giving someone some time off.
  I read so many accounts of leaders making it a personnal matter (or I should say a matter of pride) when it should really be about you.
  I really hope NO MATTER WHAT YOUR CHOICES WILL BE IN THE FUTURE that things will go smoothly for you.

• 49 Bored in Vernal // Sep 8, 2009 at 4:25 am

  I have been very distressed about this in the past, but I think I am gradually coming to terms with losing you as a member of the Church, even if it’s mostly in name only, these days. I’ve enjoyed watching you navigate your journey outside of Mormonism. And now I’m rather voyeuristically fascinated to see the details of how an excommunication plays out. I’m glad you’re doing it this way, it seems right for you and your family. I know it’s been painful, but hopefully most of the pain is in the past and this will be a good way to achieve some closure. Thanks for sharing!
  Love you, John–(((((hugs)))))

• 50 Kathy Quick // Sep 8, 2009 at 4:32 am

  Get it over with! (Please note that this is not the same suggestion as “Get over it,” though a dose of that will undoubtedly come to you soon of its own accord.) Honestly, it seems like Wednesday may feel like a relief to you all. It’s like meeting facilitation – he or she who holds the microphone / marker has the floor and the power to direct the flow and tempo of the collective. The LDS council has held the cards for these last few months, holding the power to decide when, how, and whether to take action, and leaving you in a limbo state. They’ve just shown their cards. To date, neither you nor the LDS church has definitively called the game, and really, at the point, don’t you think one or the other of you might just as well, and that it would be a good thing for all parties? I know the hearing’s not likely to be a pleasant hour or so for anyone involved, but then this will be over. I know I cannot appreciate the insider perspective on the eternal implications of being excommunicated, and I don’t wish to make light of that. But a very, very large part of any pain that anyone would feel about your leaving the church must already have been suffered by now; you’ve made your feelings abundantly clear and your formal departure will take no one by surprise. You are not being tested, but you may bear witness – or not – if you like.

  A final word of advice, since I seem to be in advice-giving mode: try to avoid any feeling of compunction to write up the event right away – or ever, actually – unless and until you really want to.

  I am holding you, Jana, and the disciplinary council members in the light, hoping that each of you uses this as an opportunity to learn and to express compassion.

  PS Happy, happy anniversary to a great couple!

• 51 T-Bone // Sep 8, 2009 at 5:59 am

  So you can only bring other church members. That kind of has a chilling effect, doesn’t it?

  What church member would disagree with the Stake Pres and risk their own membership?

  If you feel your departure is imminent, you can always take control and just present them with your resignation. Then it’s your decision, not theirs.

• 52 aerin // Sep 8, 2009 at 7:26 am

  I’ve never understood why the LDS church chooses to fire its voluntary members.

  In many mainstream Christian religions, people are taken off the rolls after not attending for a year, automatically. They are removed with no “courts” or fanfare. In that process, it would be easy for any family (like John’s) to simply leave it alone.

  I’m not sure I’ve ever understood why the LDS church decided to react differently. In both faiths, from my understanding, a person’s eternal soul is at risk. But for many mainstream congregations, it is not for men in “authority” to make that judgement or to pressure the person one way or another.

  I thought only Christ/God could judge what is in a person’s heart. If I remember my KJV correctly….

• 53 Leslie // Sep 8, 2009 at 7:33 am

  Don’t let them do that to you. Leave on your own terms. Come prepared with a resignation letter to hand to them. In such a case, all disciplinary action must stop. Then walk away with dignity and put that part of your life behind you.

  Best of luck to you. )

• 54 Nick Literski // Sep 8, 2009 at 7:40 am

  #11:
  People like Oliver Cowdery came back because their hearts never really left. He was retired, sick and otherwise well off, but he left everything and trekked out to Utah to rejoin the saints and beg their forgiveness.

  That is false. Cowdery died in Richmond, Missouri, where he remains buried to this day. He allegedly intended to travel to Utah the following year (i.e., he was in no evident hurry), but died before ever doing so.

• 55 ExCultGirl // Sep 8, 2009 at 7:55 am

  Good riddance silly little cult. Giv’em heck at your court of love. Remember they have zero power over you. It is so sad that we, ex-Mormons, have wasted so much of our lives with some 19th century fraud. I can’t believe I once believed in sacred peep-stones, Kolob and the evil ways of coffee not to mention believing it was okay for my prophet to marry 14 year girls- gag.

  Best of luck!

• 56 crazywomancreek // Sep 8, 2009 at 8:24 am

  I can’t help it- just seeing Nick’s name makes me giggle now:
  http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/08/31/my-nacle-notebook-2008-funny-comments/
  “Now THAT’S a gay Mormon: Nick Literski, living the Principle since 2006!”
  Thank you so much for that, Nick and Mike!
  And, BiV, isn’t there something you would like to send to John, hmmm?

• 57 G // Sep 8, 2009 at 8:29 am

  a few more thoughts I had while reading others comments…

  I’m not sure why, but I have a negative response to the idea of pulling a quickie resignation out.

  Perhaps this comes from all the times I have heard true believing members speak disparagingly of people who have resigned just to avoid being excommunicated…

  But I think it also has to do with the fact that, if done correctly, this could become a very positive act of closure for you and your time as a Mormon. For you to ‘have your day in court’ (ha!). For you to be able to speak your peace.

  (Of course, all the potential is there for it to be a brutal, cruel and emotionally draining farce… but I am optimistic of the stake leaders intents and have faith in your communication abilities.)

  I repeat my grievance that the leadership was not more specific in their accusations as it would provide you with specific information as to what you could share with them. I’m wondering if you can request specific accusations. However that would probably only prolong the date and draw out the drama.

  I know this has been hard for Jana, and your LDS friends. I hope that you making this a valuable part of your own journey will ease the hurts that this has inflicted.

  and BONUS: this will be extraordinarily valuable to those who have already, or someday will be faced with the same situation.

• 58 crazywomancreek // Sep 8, 2009 at 8:31 am

  If Rush Limbaugh was actually G, I would be a dittohead. Everything she said.

• 59 Dave // Sep 8, 2009 at 8:33 am

  Happy anniversary, John. It’s nice your marriage is going better than your church membership. I imagine you are happier than someone whose membership is fine but whose marriage is failing.

  You sound a lot mellower now than you sounded in the last series of Mormon posts a few months ago. I hope that creates a friendlier conversation at your meeting with your local leaders on Wednesday. And I hope things turn out better than you are expecting.

• 60 Kaimi // Sep 8, 2009 at 8:33 am

  Sorry to hear this, John.

  If it helps any, when you’re in talks tomorrow, try to mentally replace the words “Court of Love” with the much more evocative phrase “Court of Lovecraft.”

• 61 William Shunn // Sep 8, 2009 at 8:33 am

  John, my thought and best wishes to you as you go through the formal portion of this painful break-up. It’ll be hard, but you’ll get through it fine.

  I call it a break-up because a person’s relationship with his or her religion really is a relationship. For devout Mormons (and of course for most religious folks), the Church is one of the biggest parts of their lives, and in many cases has been since birth. Disentangling oneself from it is a long and complicated process. You don’t just wake up one day and make the break. It takes time. It takes self-examination and mental processing.

  Two important parts of that process are the formal closing of the door on the relationship (the excommunication, or the break-up), and that talking about it before, during, and after. The first puts an official period to that part of one’s life, offering the sense of a new start. The second is how we come to terms with what happened, figure out how it was relevant to who we were and who we are now, and move on.

  We’re humans. We’re verbal creatures. That’s how we relate to the world, how we digest and process the world. We talk about the things that happened to us. We tell stories. That’s how we make ourselves new people.

  If there’s anything my own experience of leaving the church taught me, it’s that the need to talk about it peaks and eventually fades. It will never go away entirely, but that’s because having been a Mormon once upon a time is fundamental part of your character and who you are. Even when you no longer are a Mormon, the fact of having been one is part of what brought you to the place where you are now, and where you will be. You can’t change that any more than you can change who your parents were, or where you were born. These things all make us who we are.

  If I may go back to the relationship metaphor, I went through what was possibly the most painful break-up of a romantic relationship in my life back in 1998. For a while there, it was all I could talk about. How could I not? It had been the single biggest fact of my life for the previous two and a half years. Even with the door firmly closed on that period, even though I couldn’t have been more happy that the relationship was over, it took time to move past it and to figure out who I was now that I was out. It didn’t happen overnight, and it didn’t happen by clamming up and keeping it all to myself. It happened by *talking about it* with my friends, and even with some strangers.

  To people like John Roberts who expect bitterness and obsession to consume every Mormon apostate, I say that every one of us is different. Some get past it faster than others. Some don’t get past it at all. Some *are* able to walk away and never look back, but those are usually the ones who didn’t have as big an investment in their relationship with the Church. For the ones who were sincerely trying to live a good Mormon life and found it eventually at odds with their true beliefs about life and the world, it takes more time. But it fades. It does.

  That doesn’t mean there will come a time when the apostate will never again speak of this time in his or her life, nor should it. Mormonism will come up from time to time, because *it is part of what made us all what we are*. To think we’ll never again talk about it, never again write about it, is to imagine that a successful, happy human being can become that way by ignoring his or her past.

  As John Remy continues to talk about, write about, and process the experience he’s going through, it doesn’t mean there’s something wrong, bitter, or mendacious about him. It means he’s a normal human being, do what healthy humans do.

  What it most certainly *doesn’t* mean is that the object of his ruminations is somehow proven True or Eternal by the very fact of his mentioning it, any more than talking about an ex-partner after a break-up somehow transforms that person into your One True Love, and yourself into that love’s betrayer.

• 62 Charla // Sep 8, 2009 at 9:20 am

  You can still resign if you wish via instructions at mormonnomore.com – sometimes our loved ones take a resignation easier than an excomm.

  Now we better understand why some mormons say ”not all truth is useful” … because acknowledging ”all” truth leads to the situation where ”ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.”

• 63 Charla // Sep 8, 2009 at 9:22 am

  PS: The reason I suggest resignation is because mormons *never* back down from threatening to excomm you. Sorry. It’s just how they play that game.

  Now, if you were still paying in tons’o'tithing, they’d probably be leaving you alone. Sorry. It’s just how they play that game, too. =(

• 64 Richard (of OC Friends) // Sep 8, 2009 at 9:31 am

  John (and Jana),

  Since meeting you a few years ago and getting to know you both a little bit, I have thought a lot about your process of leaving the LDS. I admire you both for your courage in risking the worldly ties of community and family in your search for truth. Coming from the opposite side of the “world of faith,” (growing up with no religious affiliation or even guidance) I can only imagine what you have experienced.

  All I can add is this – these courts and rules and religious organizations in general are just leaves in the wind. When you sit down with this council, at bottom you are all the same – souls searching for truth. To go and confront them honestly and with dignity and in the face of the pain they may cause you shows that you care about them as children of God. From my humble perspective it seems that you understand what they are about – but maybe they will benefit by gaining some understanding of you and your reasons for leaving the LDS. Ino ther words, hopefully something good will come out of this.

  By the way, happy anniversary to a great couple!

• 65 Bob Lyons // Sep 8, 2009 at 9:32 am

  Leaving the LDS Church for any reason is a difficult and heart wrenching experience particularly if you believed it deeply.

  If nothing else it’s questioning the beliefs from which one lived their life and trusted in. That’s almost like finding out there’s no Santa Claus.

  Leaving Mormonism is particularly difficult because the LDS Church makes such a complete effort to control your every thought and action.
  Going through a temple ritual and mindlessly giving your word that you’re willing to give “everything”, your life, your wealth, your time and talents to the building up of the LDS Church and then taking a death oath for revealing any of the experience of the temple isn’t something ANY other Church asks of it’s members.

  So I say kudos for having the balls to leave. In hindsight it’s very similar to those young boys who are kicked out of the FLDS faith.
  Hard as it may seem, your life will be growing in dramatic ways that were not possible before with the narrow world view of the LDS Church.

  The LDS Church is a man made hoax that controls a few people. In the grand scheme of things, it’s a nothing. A flyspeck.

  Like the God of the world would speak to mankind by giving a womanizing charleton revelations by his sticking his head in a hat with a rock. Yeah right! : )

  Congratulations

• 66 wren // Sep 8, 2009 at 9:33 am

  Somehow I got to this link after one I commented on earlier from back in June.

  My thoughts will be with you tomorrow.

• 67 Andrew Callahan // Sep 8, 2009 at 10:04 am

  Charla,
  Your P.S. about TSCC never backing down is not quite accurate. They backed down in my case, as they similarly backed down in the case of Buckley Jeppeson.

  They will back down if they feel they will get too much negative publicity out of continuing with the disciplinary council.

  Mine is mentioned in a YouTube video I posted: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v25omAtgOXo

  In some ways I was actually looking forward to mine, but they never rescheduled it, and then earlier this year, I resigned.

  Best wishes, to you John, and to your family.

• 68 Mike // Sep 8, 2009 at 10:29 am

  My thoughts are with you and Jana. Treat it like any of life’s experiences, and see what can be learned from it. Then, move on and do as Richard suggests (#64).

• 69 xJane // Sep 8, 2009 at 10:44 am

  It’s been said before, but I shall add my voice to those who send you joy and light and strength.

  I agree with those who would encourage you to wear a wire—I think that the Mormon church could stand a little transparency—and in that I will admit to being curious about how they conduct their “courts”, a selfish desire that you should pay absolutely no attention to. Do what is right for you and not for your readers (who are anxiously awaiting disclosure of a sort I just noted in myself).

  Perhaps the best solution has also been already mentioned: ignore it. You are not subject to the laws of an authority you no longer recognize. They cannot deny you a relationship with the Divine, though they claim to, and you agree that they cannot. Of course, ignoring them will be playing into their hands—a catch 22 for you—where they will declare you to be a heretic simply because you deny their authority to declare you a heretic. It seems that, in the past, such letters have invoked just such action in its former members—perhaps it is hoping to bully you into simply going away and no longer being a problem for them.

  I would love to hear about your itemization of precisely why you acted in ways that they consider apostasy (apostastic?)—if you could get your hands on such a list, a recommendation that has also already been made (and one that you have acted upon), but which is a good one.

  Molly @46 said it well,
  

  you are speaking for the silent group of disaffected Mormons who can’t express their frustrations or reasons for unbelief because it comes at too high a price — usually being cut off by family and friends.

  This makes you a Lorax of sorts, speaking for the voiceless, and places obligations upon you which you are free to ignore. If it becomes too much for you, step away.

  I also like William Shunn @61’s discussion of a religion as being like a relationship and getting out of it like a break-up. Hear, hear!

• 70 This beMike // Sep 8, 2009 at 11:09 am

  I was a member for 34 years. And I too found the religion to be a farce, a cult, big time cult. I made my thoughts known to a trusted friend, an was reported to Bishop. We had out talk, Bishop and I. He told me that I needed to repent, and um catch up on my tithing. I said no, my thought process was not a repent process, but an personal journey that I am making, sorta a growth delima. He saw my refusal as a challenge to his authorith, and did not hold a bishops court, but a Stake Pres, Court of LOVE! There were friends in there that I knew for 20 plus years. Half way thru the proceeding listening to them condem me on false charges. I got up and said, “Now I know how Jesus felt, being falsely chared by the High Council of Jews, I QUIT>>THEY DONT!!

• 71 John // Sep 8, 2009 at 11:42 am

  I’ve fleshed out my reasons for going to the court and not simply resigning here.

• 72 Dana Dahl // Sep 8, 2009 at 11:44 am

  Emancipation whether imposed or fought for and personally sought is still Freedom. I’m excited for you and your family.

  The LDS church will continue to see an exodus of it’s finest, brightest, most interesting and clever and will someday only be left with the drones, the dull witted, and blindly obedient.

  Welcome to the big wide world of information and all that it can bring you. May you find the incredible opportunities that await you in the free world. In my experience since leaving the LDS cult I’ve found that food tastes better, I read better books, see better movies, meet more interesting people, drink better drinks, and sex is WAAAAYYYY better!

  The world is yours for the taking. Everything is so much brighter out here. In a few days it’ll be like you were given the big box of 64 crayons instead of the three cheap ones the LDS cult uses to color it’s world.

  Return and report when you find out what’s out here.

• 73 John // Sep 8, 2009 at 11:49 am

  Bill (#61), beautifully told. I hope this doesn’t sound over the top, but Jana and I are honored and buoyed by your example and (virtual) presence. Thank you.

  xJane (#69): I feel compelled/inspired to be the Lorax. The Mollys of the world are very much on my mind. I’m good with it.

  Everyone: again, thank you for your stories and well-wishes. For every one of you commenting there are a few others who are drawing support, feeling less alone, by reading your comments. There are a quite a few of us out there! It’s quite the contrast from the isolation that would come from a lockdown on communication about apostasy and excommunication that the Church would prefer.

• 74 PK // Sep 8, 2009 at 12:18 pm

  I am active in the Mormon church and have held some leadership positions including branch president.

  There are 3 purposes for church dicipline:

  1. To help the offender recognize where they are off the path and to repent.
  2. To protect other innocent people from harm.
  3. To protect the name of the church.

  I suppose that the leadership is concerned about the direction you are taking. They are probably concerned about your welfare and maybe are concerned that you are impeding the progress of the church. If this is true than in their oppinion, you are not on the Lord’s side. At least you are not on the church’s side.

  It seems to me that you have 2 choices:

  1. If you do not want to receive church discipline, then you can repent and accept the teachings of the church.
  2. If you do not want to accept the teachings of the church, then why do you care if the church is taking action? you do not even need to attend the court. It seems that the church should have no place in your heart if you do not accept it.

• 75 Charla // Sep 8, 2009 at 12:19 pm

  Good luck from me, too!

  One last idea – wear that voice-activated tape recorder and don’t admit you have it to them. They’re lying to you now and have for 20 years. The least you could do is lie to their faces in return haha. — I think all the bush wiretapping laws made it legal for any of us to tape any convo we’re part of. Again, not sure about the legality but wanted to throw that out there so that you could get an accurate record for yourself of what all goes down.

• 76 Kaimi // Sep 8, 2009 at 12:30 pm

  John,

  There are specific and very important legal reasons why you SHOULD NOT record any of the proceedings without the consent of the other people present. Please do not make any recording without consent. I’m going to follow up with more detail via e-mail.

• 77 William Shunn // Sep 8, 2009 at 12:45 pm

  PK (#74): It seems that the church should have no place in your heart if you do not accept it.

  That’s a highly naive view of the way the human heart works.

• 78 John // Sep 8, 2009 at 12:46 pm

  Just to make this clear to everyone (and to the Stake officials undoubtedly monitoring this very open discussion) I was not planning on recording the proceedings (besides with my brain, which I can’t seem to shut off). Mainly, secretly recording something like this would violate my own desire to be open and transparent. So, sorry folks. You’ll have to deal with my own faulty memory and filters.

• 79 Jonathan Blake // Sep 8, 2009 at 12:46 pm

  “If you do not want to accept the teachings of the church, then why do you care if the church is taking action? you do not even need to attend the court. It seems that the church should have no place in your heart if you do not accept it.”

  If only it were that simple. First, it’s not so easy to break off a long term relationship. Emotions are complicated and don’t pay much attention to the logic you cite. In time, someone may come to a state of indifference, but it takes time.

  Also, more than one person is affected by an excommunication. If I were excommunicated, for example, it would devastate my family.

• 80 John // Sep 8, 2009 at 12:47 pm

  PK, the choices are based on your values, your experience. They don’t match mine. But thanks.

• 81 John // Sep 8, 2009 at 12:49 pm

  It surprises me how inconsistently church members admonish you to consider the impact of your choices on the one hand, but to make decisions based on individual integrity without regard to the consequences on the other hand.

  I take that back. It’s perfectly consistent: the advice given always recommends actions which favor the Church.

• 82 alice // Sep 8, 2009 at 12:56 pm

  Never having been Mormon, I have no dog in this fight. …except that I’m a big fan of the truth — seeking it, speaking it and attempting to understand it.

  As such, I hope you find some in your meeting and I hope all those who are a party to the event — I will not refer to it as a “court” because I don’t believe there are humans who can pass judgment on anyone’s personal spirituality — are as open to it.

  I look forward to learning more about the process and your particular experience.

  I would share that I left the Catholic church more than 40 years ago. At the time, when I was about 20, I had long ceased to believe any of it dogma and had no respect for it’s authoritarian practices. In fact, as a Catholic school kid from kindergarten, I had been told many times what I believed but I doubt I ever really held any of those convictions. Still, on the morning when I declared my independence by refusing to go to mass, I had real trepidation about the finality and consequences of my decision. My discomfort passed when I assessed that voluntarily assuming consequences for something that I didn’t believe had any legitimacy was nothing more than superstition. I haven’t looked back in 40 years and feel like that was the day my life opened up.

  The world will be a better place when churches operate on the compelling nature of their belief and support systems rather than secrecy and intimidation.

  Best wishes. I admire your courage and resolve.

• 83 Runtu // Sep 8, 2009 at 1:12 pm

  Now that I’m a little removed from the whole church thing, it just baffles me what they hope to accomplish with such a move. Do they think that threatening excommunication is going to intimidate someone who obviously isn’t interested in church membership? Are they hoping to make an example for the fencesitters? Honestly, the idea that they even care what a disaffected member writes is just silly. Maybe they’ll come after me next.

  And “John Roberts,” you seem to be projecting, as your glib dismissal of any unbeliever who dares think about the church, let alone talk about it, suggests that you’re afraid we might be right.

• 84 fMhLisa // Sep 8, 2009 at 1:26 pm

  I do adore you John and I hope this helps your heart on your healing path and your experiences are as good as possible under the circumstances.

• 85 Craig // Sep 8, 2009 at 1:37 pm

  @PK

  The church has done more than enough to sully it’s own name – it hardly needs any help from those of us whom it abused. To try to silence those who criticise is one of the surest signs that something is being hidden. If there were no valid reasons to criticise the church, if it were indeed true, why is it so afraid of transparency?

  It is because it is not what it claims to be – it hides and manipulates the truth so that what it looks like on the outside is not at all what it is internally.

  To protect the reputation of the institution at the expense of the lives of people in it is a dispicable thing.

• 86 Paul // Sep 8, 2009 at 2:39 pm

  To alice (#82): Thank you for reminding me of this perspective. As a former Catholic along with my nuclear family, when we all joined the LDS church there was flak, fallout, whatever, etc, from a lot of friends and family members about this. But people change religions! What’s the difference between leaving the LDS church from leaving the Catholic church? My parents did it without any regret because they came to a conclusion that the Catholic church was not the “one and only true church,” but the LDS church was. Following this line of thinking, if I come to the conclusion that the LDS church is also not the “one and only true church” what’s the big deal in leaving this church as well just like the time when we left the Catholic church?

  A church is a church is church — in many respects. Of course some would argue that the LDS church “gets under your skin” in a deeper and more profound way than Catholicism, and I would tend to agree, but if you are able to stand outside of the situation and see it for what it truly is, i.e., just another “church,” (although different than a lot of mainstream ones), it becomes less intense, less of an issue in your daily life. It just becomes a “pass time” — something like following a soap opera. Life is so much more than how the Mormon church tends to dictate how and what its members should think and speak. It’s just a “church.”

• 87 Jonathan Blake // Sep 8, 2009 at 3:01 pm

  “what’s the big deal in leaving this church as well just like the time when we left the Catholic church?”

  Because the LDS church really is the only true church.

• 88 Kari // Sep 8, 2009 at 3:53 pm

  Did I read your original post correctly? You came home to find the letter where? Delivered by the mail? Left on the doorstep?

  Too bad you posted about it. I would have denied it was ever received, as their own published procedures (the CHI) state that it’s supposed to be delivered in person, by two priesthood holders.

• 89 xJane // Sep 8, 2009 at 4:48 pm

  alice @82—I came out of the Catholic faith & didn’t find anyplace like Mind on Fire where people were talking about it openly and sympathetically. I hope you’ll stick around

• 90 alice // Sep 8, 2009 at 6:15 pm

  Thank you for the invitation, Jane.

  I probably had plenty to say the first decade. Less the second. Now I have enough remove that it’s not of so much interest. …until they go monkeying in politics with tax-free money, that is.

  If I have something that seems like encouragement I share because, as you say, there’s a vulnerable period when people need to believe that following their own consciences is a valid and viable option. Mostly tho, it’s a private journey that comes down to each person finding their courage and empowering themself.

  I do think I’ll be around reading tho. I see much to admire here. ;>

• 91 Parker // Sep 8, 2009 at 6:35 pm

  As a process Church courts really make no sense (except to those who consider everything about the Church sensible). That being said, the best to you and Jana as you work your way through what is and will be a frustrating experience. It is so hard to have a meaningful conversation with a junior red chair.

• 92 Andrea // Sep 8, 2009 at 7:42 pm

  Remember that these guys have no real authority over you. I’m interested to hear how it goes. I feel like it’s sort of an inevitability for me, and I still don’t know how I’ll deal with it when it happens.
  Good luck!

• 93 Greg // Sep 8, 2009 at 8:22 pm

  Hang in there, man. Remember that you have the Truth on your side. You are not responsible for the bad feelings that THEY are causing. The “authority” they are attempting to impose on you does not exist.

  You will pass through this experience and emerge stronger and wiser. Embrace it as a such. It has never come before, and you will most likely never see it again.

  I look forward to reading what you have to say. Best of luck to you.

• 94 This beMike // Sep 8, 2009 at 11:18 pm

  I am sure by now, that they know your process of plastering your court process here. And that is a shame. They are going o be POLITE, CORTIUOS to you. they dont want to give you any ammunition. What you see there Tomorrow, is not REAL! What my brother and I faced some years ago, was their total lack of love, self absorbed authority crap. You are going to get a very fine reception. No one there wants you to post them as the bad guy. You will get the honey dew version of Court of love. lucky you!!!

• 95 Hellmut // Sep 9, 2009 at 2:52 am

  PK, have you ever read the case files of the Mormon Alliance? You might find them eye opening: http://mormonalliance.org/

• 96 Elaine // Sep 9, 2009 at 10:11 am

  John…I just saw this. I’m in the middle of work and so haven’t been able to read all the comments (I’ll be back to do that later).

  For now, know that my thoughts will be with you and Jana this evening.

  Elaine

• 97 Hellmut // Sep 9, 2009 at 7:23 pm

  PK, have you read the case studies of the Mormon Alliance?

• 98 Thoughts about excommunication and resignation « Irresistible (Dis)Grace // Sep 9, 2009 at 10:46 pm

  [...] doesn’t just happen overnight, after all), from what I can see, but it came to a boil here, here, and here. And this has brought other posts remarking about it, a brief write-up about it, [...]

• 99 kittywaymo // Sep 10, 2009 at 12:03 am

  Although said rather harshly, John Roberts kinda hits it on the head a bit~ I am a former radio newscaster and a convert to LDS from Jewish faith~ I love the LDS religion and have enjoyed great happiness in it (since age 12) my husband, a descendant of JS has many hand written journals from the time period from his ancestors. It is true: people shine in there own small world, thinking giving up their happiness/salvation is “standing for something bigger than Jesus Christ and the Gospel” and therefore justifiable. You seem like a very kind, gentle soul. It truly makes me sad to see such a young person make a grave decision based on what others say~ You will soon sadly learn, that the bitterness, if you let it, overtakes you and makes you more cynical. Please do not become like so many former LDS, embittered, angry and hateful. Keep your perspective of love, which I feel you seem to have. (some good Jewish mother advice:) Seriously, the “leaving neutral ground forever, leaving the church/not leaving it alone thing” is VERY true. I have seen it for years on and off the internet. Just hold on to good things the Gospel taught you~ don’t go off the deep end like so many and pick up addictive habits that harm the body, mind and soul. Try to love, forgive~ and focus on the positive, not the negative. we are not all “sheep” most of us are pretty darn smart (ok, maybe not humble:) myself included: I am extremely well read, married to a physician who is also quite brilliant and we know Church history inside and out. What keeps me going is my personal spiritual experiences~ my studies of Isaiah and the Gospel in general and most of all the Temple and the very sacred, powerful experiences I’ve had there. Yes, I know about the Egyptian Endowment, masonry etc.. Most things have a common thread and any archeologist will tell you… History literally repeats itself:) God bless you in all you do, please don’t close the door forever on the Church and keep an open mind that there is a good chance you may have made some poor decisions, but there is always a way back for all of us, repentance. Noone is perfect~ I will keep you in my prayers, and pray you will please continue to pray and be close to God. Best always, Kitty

• 100 Jonathan Blake // Sep 10, 2009 at 6:00 am

  I can tell you’re sincere, Kitty, but I must tell you that your concept of ex-Mormons is full of false stereotypes that apply to only a few (and probably only temporarily while they’re in the process of moving on). You should hang out with more ex-Mormons and find out how they really live their life rather than assuming that you know.

• 101 William Shunn // Sep 10, 2009 at 6:05 am

  @100: You should hang out with more ex-Mormons and find out how they really live their life rather than assuming that you know.

  Except then she might want to become one!

• 102 Paul // Sep 10, 2009 at 9:14 am

  To Kitty #99: A wonderful entry and I appreciate the sincere fervor of your convictions. Please note, however, that the “Mormon” church does not suit every one *all the time*. Circumstances change in the lives of individuals, and other things “move along.” Everything is in flux; nothing stays the same — even for you. Sure, right now you have your prestigious husband, your temple nights, your friends, your “everything in a neat box” FOR NOW. But when the “cucca hits the fan” and your “church” is not there for you, then that begs the question: What is the utility of your church if it only works during fair weather times, AND only if you have been accepted into the group even when the weather isn’t so great.

  Leaving the LDS church isn’t giving up your soul to Satan. Leaving the LDS church isn’t leaving your sense of and for religion. For many people (not all, of course) it appears that J.S. (a charismatic genius to say the least) invented and pieced together a religion that evolved over time and every individual can do likewise (to their own limits and capabilities). Take the time to study even the very history of Christianity, let alone the “Mormon” church and you will learn that there have been (and always will be) questions, and surprising facts that will make you “wonder.” Still, though, you retain your sense of “spirituality,” your sense of awe for the universe that we live in, your sense that there is a “God” and he/she/it is, or at least should be the recipient of gratitude. I could go on, but I’ve said enough. I am happy FOR YOU. I hope that you will always remain happy and content in the LDS church. It seems to work for you NOW, and that’s very good FOR YOU and yours. Peace (I have more of it now than I ever did before.)

• 103 wayfarer // Sep 11, 2009 at 12:55 am

  I’m not sure what happened to my earlier comment.
  Please don’t be afraid,John.You and your family are in a process,and I’m sure with good will you will find a way to consecrate these afflictions to the good of the soul of your family.I guess you may need privacy to do that.
  Being a sharer of experiences myself,I have started to learn that some things need to treated as sacred to my soul.I have an image of you and yours embraced in god’s love.

  This may be the time to let the destroying angel logo go.

• 104 Truthseeker // Sep 11, 2009 at 5:08 am

  Thanks for sharing your excommunication story. Remember always that you were excommunicated for telling the truth about the church, not for lying about it. Best wishes in your journey.

• 105 Ringwielder // Sep 16, 2009 at 7:47 am

  As an Ex Jehovah’s Witness who left after 40 years, I find the language and the experiences here almost the same as that of Ex JWs.

  To those who are still ‘in’, there is no way you can have left the faith for any other reason than a selfish one. JWs have it inculcated into them that to be an apostate is the epitome of evil.

  The reason why many Ex JWs are rightly bitter is because of the shunning, the cutting off from family and friends. They have to create a whole new life and friends and this can be very difficult in the beginning.

  I understand your desire to document your experiences and go to this ‘judicial’ meeting. Otherwise I would be advising you to refuse because in going you still acknowledge they have authority over you. These kangaroo courts where imperfect men decide your future for you are a bogus apparatus, designed for control purposes. They give unqualified men power and they love it, playing God.

  I wish you all the best in your journey in life John and am happy you get to live most of it the way you want to, not the way some other human tells you you should.

  Steve

• 106 Alli Easley // Sep 19, 2009 at 3:01 am

  Jon. Jana. I have been searching for words to say about this whole thing and I can’t find them. I wanted you to know that my love and support for you (being on THIS side still…) is here. You’re brave. You’re strong. You’re loved. The internet is a really scary place right now for those of us who want to speak our minds, for those of us who are “Thinking Mormons” (to borrow the phrase from 2think.org) and you’re yet another proof of this. I hate riding the fence, but the fear of what’s happened to you because you were HONEST…well…that makes it even scarier. Keep on rockin…

• 107 Alli Easley // Sep 19, 2009 at 3:28 am

  Um, I just woke up and realized I spelled your name wrong, John. I guess having 5 cousins/uncles who spell it with no “H” influenced my already sleepy mind. Forgive me!

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