30 responses so far ↓

• 1 Craig // Aug 24, 2009 at 9:16 pm

  As one of the ones who sparked this, I want to thank xJane for a great post.

  Growing up in Mormonism, I was very, very often confronted with not only virulent anti-female sexism, but with anti-male sexism. Both were equally bothersome to me, but I found the anti-male sexism perhaps weirder because it was directed at me personally. I already didn’t fit into the normal male gender role, and to top it off, I was being told I was inherently less spiritual and more carnal because I had a penis – which didn’t help my depression or guilt about masturbating one bit.

  And I suppose one of the last places I thought to see such blatantly sexist comments was on a feminist (albeit Mormon) blog. It really surprised and unsettled me that some women who were wonderfully feminist (and at least one of whom I had recently met) would make a sexist comment about men in such an offhand way. It offended me in a way that the same comment coming from a more traditional, non-feminist Mormon wouldn’t have, because I expected them to know better, and realise what it feels like to be the object of sexism.

  I wonder if we ever grow out of the sexism, racism and homophobia we were brought up with.

• 2 John // Aug 24, 2009 at 9:59 pm

  I want to point out here that Jessawhy did apologize for her offhand remark, and that the women of Exponent (from what I hear from Jana) do have to fend off virulent, unapologetic anti-female trolls, esp. when women’s sexuality is discussed.

  What bothered me the most wasn’t the original comment, but how strongly several feminist women that I talked to about the comment defended the context of the original content while being fairly dismissive our experience of it. I wasn’t bothered by the defense of Jessawhy’s comment (which I think was understandable given the context) so much as the non-acknowledgment of our negative response to it. I shared your expectation that I would look to feminists as ones who would be more immediately affirming of ones experience and more ready to explore these nuances.

  As a pro-feminist male, I already feel like I have such low credibility in any discursive space I enter into. I think that this is one of the reasons why, over the past year or two, I’ve shifted much of my advocacy time and energy towards promoting gay and queer rights.

• 3 Craig // Aug 24, 2009 at 10:08 pm

  Yeah, I read most of the comments on the modesty post, and was disturbed by several of them as well. I do completely affirm that women, especially those in Mormonism have to deal with terrible sexism, and that the male role is to dominate and own the women. There is inherent inequality in the way women are expected to modest compared to men, and I criticise that just as loudly as do they.

  But it makes me sad then to see women who are fighting that oppression to go beyond decrying harmful gender roles and expectations, and start making harmful generalisation about men and male sexuality – regardless of the unfair treatment any women has received at the hand of a male, it’s just as wrong to generalise that to all men as it is for you to be treated in a sexist way. To me, you’re reinforcing your own problematic and undeserved sexist treatment by doing that.

• 4 angryyoungwoman // Aug 25, 2009 at 12:38 am

  I’ll agree that the Mormon presentation of men as carnal and naturally lustful is beyond insulting. It is damaging to both men and women. It is destructive to the self image of men and boys (I would never think of telling my beloved nephew that he was just naturally not as spiritual as a girl. How terrible!). It also creates a space where women are blamed for tempting the (lustful, carnal) men (who just can’t help themselves and their wild raging hormones).

  I would argue that this view of men is as much a product of the patriarchy as the traditional view of the “suitable” (or unsuitable) woman. The patriarchy is damaging both to men and to women, and one of the major ways in which it is damaging is this assignment of stereotypes which tend to make us (men and women) feel inadequate.

• 5 angryyoungwoman // Aug 25, 2009 at 12:41 am

  Or I could just say you got offended because of your hormones and it’s obviously your time of the month, Craig. What? You don’t think that’s funny? You menists have no sense of humor.

  A joke, a joke.

• 6 x2 Alisa // Aug 25, 2009 at 9:34 am

  I agree, John and Craig, that it is offensive for both of you, as well as many other men who comment on Exponent, to be lumped with the “male trolls” who seem to show up only to request nudie pictures of permabloggers, as on D’Arcy’s now-deleted post. You’re right: That’s generalizing and frustrating. It is sexist. And when it’s a blog where men’s voices are often in the minority, I can see how it’s disappointing. I hope men (very much including you) will continue to comment and contribute to the discussion. It may be a feminist blog, but I firmly believe men of different sorts are important to that conversation as much as women of different sorts are.

  I know I’d hate to be dismissed from a conversation or blog because I’m straight or Mormon, when really these demographics have little to do with my personal advocacy for issues such as gay civil rights. I don’t want to be lumped in with a big group of people who don’t share my political beliefs or behaviors. So, in drawing from that, I see why generalizations are not helpful or true to the specific person.

  Jessawhy feels bad for what she said. I think she intended to express her good feelings about the participation and discussion regardless of gender, and it came off reinforcing sexism, while she was trying to celebrate the lack of sexism on the thread. And certainly, we don’t even know the true sex of the trolls on other posts anyway.

• 7 xJane // Aug 25, 2009 at 9:51 am

  This was not intended as an attack on Jessawhy—more as a discussion of topics & thoughts aroused by her comment. As I admitted above, I am guilty of anti-guy sexism as well; that doesn’t make it right. And thank you, x2 Alisa, for noting that people can be judged for being straight and Mormon as well as for being homosexual and atheist.

• 8 x2 Alisa // Aug 25, 2009 at 9:59 am

  Yes, being more on track with the OP, I have observed that patriarchy, while creating the male/female divide, opens the door for the deprication of men as well as women. Slurs and jokes against men (whether made by women or men themselves) seem much more common in my experience in my patriarchal church. And it’s bad in its own right. I keep thinking about comments on men “presiding” in the home. I had church leaders say, “but you know it’s the wife who *really* has the power). Why does any one person need all that power anyway?

  Reinforcing the divide between men and women tears both groups down, rather than building anything helpful.

• 9 John // Aug 25, 2009 at 10:20 am

  Alisa, thank you for taking the time to acknowledge and comment. I hope that Jessawhy doesn’t feel like xJane or I are picking on her. I think I know her well enough to know that she is a very thoughtful, caring person and that she would feel very bad if she thought she had caused harm through a careless sexist comment.

  I think pro-feminist men have a careful balancing act in feminist spaces. The issues are primarily about women, and it is right to, in general, avoid making the conversations about men’s concerns. But I think there is also enough wiggle room (which is why I initially voiced my concerns privately, rather than publicly) to sometimes discuss the ways in which patriarchy hurts men and to acknowledge specific personal experiences of it.

  Which you are doing right now, Alisa. Thank you.

• 10 Chandelle // Aug 25, 2009 at 11:10 am

  xJane, thanks for writing this post. This is a common issue on feminist sites I frequent. Just last week I left this comment on fMh:

  http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/?p=2607#comment-752017

  Positing women as better than men, more spiritual, more generous, more intelligent or more controlled is an extremely common phenomenon on fMh and other Mormon sites, and it bothers me as much as the more overt misogyny inherent in patriarchal theology.

  I try to call it out when I see it, even though I know it’s written off as nitpicking. I’ve also been told that it’s impossible for an oppressed class to oppress others, i.e. that women are inherently incapable of being sexist by virtue of their oppression, much like the minorities-can’t-be-racist argument.

• 11 Craig // Aug 25, 2009 at 11:19 am

  I’ve also been told that it’s impossible for an oppressed class to oppress others

  So because (as a gay) I’m an oppressed class I can be as misogynist & racist & transphobic & as I want?

  Suhweet!

• 12 G // Aug 25, 2009 at 11:26 am

  thank you xjane for writing this. mostly, it makes me cringe a bit remembering all the things that inadvertently come out of my mouth.

  I’m sexist too sometimes.
  and working on it.

• 13 G // Aug 25, 2009 at 11:27 am

  (that is, working to overcome it….)

• 14 Craig // Aug 25, 2009 at 11:32 am

  @G

  I’m quite certain we all are, at times, often without immediately realising it. We’re raised with sexism being so totally normalised, and often it’s quite covert. Especially coming from Mormonism where feminism is a dirty word and women really are 2nd class citizens (along with the gays).

  I’m working on trying to identify whatever sneaky vestiges of sexism (and racism and heteronormativity) are lurking in me and eradicate them. It’s hard work, and sometimes embarrassing.

• 15 Chandelle // Aug 25, 2009 at 11:34 am

  Hey guys, remember, “We’re All a Little Bit Racist.”

  

• 16 xJane // Aug 25, 2009 at 11:50 am

  ugh, I just did a super racist thing the other day and feel horrible about it (avoided holding the door open for a guy who lives in my building because I didn’t recognize him…and he was black)

• 17 John // Aug 25, 2009 at 11:52 am

  If my assumption that most of you are US or Canadian citizens is right, then we’re all by default members of a culturally and economically oppressing class of consuming nations.

  One of my favorite feminist works is Estelle Freedman’s No Turning Back: The History of Feminism and the Future of Women. She argues that you lose a lot of critical information when you look at one form of oppression w/o examining the others that intersect with it. Big example is the Euro/Ameri-centricism and upper/middle class values of second wave feminism that was not very good at accounting for the needs of all women in the less developed world and non-white women in the US and Europe.

  So, ramen, Chandelle, we’re all a little racist, classist, sexist, heteronormative, etc.

• 18 Chandelle // Aug 25, 2009 at 12:00 pm

  John, thanks for adding to the 100+ book requests I already have at the library.

  Do you guys remember the Implicit Association Test?

  https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/

  I took it thinking smugly that I’d probably end up perfectly neutral on all associations. I don’t recall all of my results, but I do remember that I had a slight preference for non-white people, a large preference for gay people, and an appreciable preference for men over women. That put me in my place.

• 19 angryyoungwoman // Aug 25, 2009 at 12:33 pm

  Just woke up (sick) and realized that my second comment was probably really, really offensive. If so, I’m sorry. Please forgive.

• 20 John // Aug 25, 2009 at 1:06 pm

  AYW, I think it was pretty obvious that you were being satirical.

  Chandelle, I remember having strong biases towards Asians and Jews.

• 21 Chandelle // Aug 25, 2009 at 3:00 pm

  John, was that a bias in favor of Asians and Jews, or against? The former makes sense considering your heritage, but the latter is interesting.

  At the time I blamed my bias against white people on recent studies of my Cherokee heritage. I felt pretty nasty about that for a while.

• 22 Chandelle // Aug 25, 2009 at 3:01 pm

  That didn’t make sense. I meant that a preference for Asians would make sense, but a preference for Jews would be curious (not for vs. against…forget it).

• 23 John // Aug 25, 2009 at 3:03 pm

  Positive for both. My dad loves Orthodox Judaism.

• 24 Jana // Aug 25, 2009 at 5:22 pm

  I am prejudiced in so many ways, about so many things….

  As an example, for the past few months I’ve basically just avoided interactions with male ‘nacle bloggers (speaking of those at the mainstream blogs & not at Sunstone or MoF or Outer Blogness). For many reasons, I’ve just had no patience with them or their ideas. Awhile back I started making some private comments about how I thought such men were just arguing or self-promoting because they were “compensating.” Pretty much whenever I ran into them online, I’d just mentally dismiss their ideas with this same generalization. It was rude and sexist of me to do this, of course.

  I don’t even know why I’m admitting this in a public forum (hello world, I’m a bigot!). But when you’ve been hurt by a group of people–even when it’s just verbal assualts–I think it’s human nature to mentally lump them into a category and put up barriers to prevent further hurt. I’ve done this with the ‘nacle men and it’s inexcusable and inappropriate–it certainly doesn’t allow me to see them as humans with important experiences and opinions. And of course I don’t think all ‘nacle men can be easily lumped into one category. I don’t think all men are only interested in sex blogposts on The Exponent.

  So I’m sorry that Craig and JohnR and other men have felt slighted when participating in Exponent discussions. It hurts to be treated dismissively based on gender or any kind of superficial category. I know we, especially those of us writing at the Exponent, all get that, and we’re doing our best to examine and undo our biases in this regard.

• 25 xJane // Aug 25, 2009 at 5:29 pm

  In my first class of Race and the Law today, we discussed just this: if you are continually mistreated by a certain group, it is only natural that you will form prejudices about that group. I am certainly guilty of male-directed sexism. Of course, I give those males who I know better a “pass” when certain comments are made—because they’re not like those other men, itself a hateful and sexist thought. It’s something we all struggle with—racism, sexism, ageism, religionism, whathaveyouism. I think reflection back on it is the important act: to be aware of it in ourselves, in others around us, and to discuss it and admit to it.

• 26 angryyoungwoman // Aug 26, 2009 at 1:46 am

  I have to admit I have a very hard time trusting men. I find it much easier to dismiss them and their ideas right off the bat than to actually listen to them. But I’ve had a lot of bad experiences with men.

  I’m trying to get better about it. It’s actually one of the things I’m working on in therapy (if you didn’t already know I went to therapy, you must have figured I did, right?), and I’m getting better at realizing when I’m just dismissing a man because he’s a man, even when he hasn’t done anything wrong. It’s interesting. Sometimes I don’t see why I have to do it because I don’t feel like I really need men–I can just have romantic relationships with women and have sex with men when I feel like it. Then I realize I’m being a huge asshole to think that way, and I have to get back to the work of thinking about my thought processes.

  Sorry that is so long and convoluted and crazy. I hope it makes sense at all.

• 27 Chandelle // Aug 26, 2009 at 5:53 am

  See, Hil, that’s definitely something I’d consider sexist – referring to men as a tool to get off without honoring their whole personhood. I mean, we would never let a man get away with referring to a woman that way. But I also understand why somebody would feel that way if they have had terrible experiences with men – and I know way too many women who have. I’m lucky to have had mostly positive experiences with men. But I have had terrible experiences with women – and thus, I tend to appreciate men better, even if I’m more physically attracted to women. So even as a woman, I could say that I could be happy going to a man for my intellectual and emotional fulfillment and just using women for sex. Either way, we’re making vast sweeping judgments on an entire sex. So confusing.

• 28 isabella mori (@moritherapy) // Aug 27, 2009 at 6:15 pm

  thanks for this great post and discussion. often comment conversations on a topic like this get really out of hand, so it’s nice to see that the comments i scanned through were civilized!

  sexism demeans both sexes. i think angryyoungwoman said something similar.

  it reminds me of an experience in a sweat lodge, where men were supposed to sit cross legged but women weren’t allowed to do that because opening their legs would be too distracting to the medicine man.

  wow. women are powerful. the medicine man not? or … what?

• 29 Jim Baerg // Aug 28, 2009 at 11:24 am

  This webpage has a lot of food for thought on sexism in both directions.

  http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoubleStandard

• 30 T-Bone // Sep 8, 2009 at 6:03 am

  Dang, my mother was one of the most outspoken people against the ERA in the 70′s and she was from a very patriarchal religion.

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