Anijen said this:

Anijen // Sep 7, 2009 at 10:11 pm

“I do not tolerate murder and neither does the church. It wasn’t a temple covenant that murdered the Fancher party but overzealous misguided fearful members. It had nothing to do with the Temple ceremony and the church did not sanction it. Strawman.”

Perhaps what Anijen and many LDS do not see since they’re deeply entrenched on the inside is that it’s the mentality and blind obedience to such rituals as performed and coerced inside the LDS temple and culture that led to the willingness of otherwise sane men to line up 120 some men, women and children, deprive them of defense, and then shoot them in the head or back.

The men who participated were otherwise GOOD LDS MEN who were told to DO YOUR DUTY by a man who believed he was following the lead of their prophet. Just as many LDS do now, they go through various rituals and agree to acts and oaths that they may not understand but in practicing them frequently, set themselves up for inevitable obedience to any dictate that the LDS church sends down the pipeline.

This year that mandate is to fund and support bigotry and hatred toward the GLBT community. For many years it was a collective and institutionalized predudice against native Americans with the very twisted and messed up Indian Placement program. Prior to that it was against any women who dared express an idea that aligned with feminism.

It’s exactly the kind of rituals practiced in the LDS temple that creates the very monstors that committed the henious act at Mountain Meadows.

I live in a little town that was founded by John D. Lee. In some ways it’s the sweetest little Shangrila that one could ever wish to live in and in others I see the ease at which many of the locals could be incited to a similar riot.

Small towns can be like that but small towns, Mormonism, ignorance, bigotry, blind obedience and irrational fear are what lead to so many of the witchhunts that plague our society and nation.

The Mormons share a collective shame in the terrible act that was committed at Mountain meadows but the bigger question may be, could they be convinced again?

John’s vlog brought back some terrible memories for me. I started going to the temple in 1984 and was tricked into participating in those death rituals. The initiatories (a sort of hazing where one is naked and old ladies graze your body with their hands) was even more humiliating.

I went to six weeks of temple prep classes and never once were any of these freaky rituals mentioned. Nothing was taught in those classes that prepared me for the nauseating and frightening rituals performed in the temple. The social coercion to participate was the equivilant of being surrounded by a group of smiling Moonies that won’t let you leave until you drink the Koolaid.

From the first perplexing time I went through till the last about 15 years later, I never once had a sensation in the temple that was not permeated by anger, fear, anxiety and frustration.

That experience nearly made me suicidal many times in anticipation and the family and social pressure to continue was so great that I would sit for hours beforehand trying to psyche myself up for it. I felt guilt for every part of not feigning to love it as the other LDS members did.

The LDS church is a cult in every sense of the word.

This hard swing of the church this decade (which is getting stronger with Monson at the helm) is ironic because it is so much like the plan of Satan the church professes to be opposed to.

In many ways I miss the church. I still visit on occaison (fortunately in a much better and diverse ward) and listen to talks – the disparity between the talks 50 years ago (such as those on classic byu speeches podcasts) and those today show a church that used to value its members’ intellect more.

Love and respect going out to John and his family, who are emerging into the kind of genuinely loving, blessed world that they themselves are working to create. For all of us.

It’s the authoritarian mindset that makes Mormonism so dangerous.

“And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands;

“Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.”

–1 Nephi 4:12, 13

One could ask the Fancher party that question.

I don’t see how any oaths made in the temple (it doesn’t matter if you no longer believe in them) can be harmful.

Cate, I do indeed know the deal.

If you are interested in my Mormon experience, I wrote about it here: http://liberalpreacher.blogspot.com/2006/04/testimony-of-dissident.html

My apologies to John for the self-promotion.

And, of course, I recognize that the situation is anything but simple. I’ve seen the pain in the faces of the men who walk out of those courts after having decided to excommunicate. It’s not a responsibility they relish or enjoy. JS described excommunication in terms of love and it is supposed to be about that – allowing a struggling member the time to find their way if they choose without the obligations that membership entails.

If you are not looking to reconcile with the church, excommunication is pointless and you should simply have your name removed and walk away being true to yourself.

Hellmut – I’m heading over to read at your website

I do appreciate your well wishing. And while I think the experience on Wed will be uncomfortable for all involved, at this time I definitely do not feel any hatred or anger towards any of the men I’ll see there.

Since I am true to the gospel, it is not my place to resign. If others want to excommunicate my friends and me, it shall be on their heads.

What struck me about your recounting of this experience is Catgirl’s comment “Isnt’ that what you wanted anyway?”

It reminded me of those men who commit some criminal act and then rather that commit suicide, they goad police into pulling the trigger, partly, I suspect, out of cowardice, and partly, perhaps, in an effort to make their killers look bad.

If you wanted to leave the church, you should have had your name removed from the records. Now, instead, you have placed the gun not simply in the hands of strangers clad in a uniform of authority, but in the hands of your friends.

If indeed, your intent was always to leave the church, and you are staying merely to legitimize your criticisms, then you have long since stopped being a member. So why the assisted suicide?

I sincerely hope that you find happiness, John, and I hope that you and the men who handled you ex-communication all walk away from the experience with a spirit of charity and a conscience void of offense.

Would the analogy be any better if it was an 18 year old’s relationship with a thesis adviser?

I’ve been struggling for a couple days now with wanting to post “Well, I hope that [some horrible thing] never happens to you.”

But every time I start, I’m faced with how horrible, ominous, and threatening the phrasing is, regardless of your intention (and mine wouldn’t have been good in the first place).

Just saying.

It’s a good thing you didn’t ask to join OCFM, or we’d have to initiate a review panel on your insistence on using titles. Radical equality, John. We don’t use titles.