Lying in bed in the wee hours this morning, I got to thinking about the murder of Dr. Tiller (deeply saddening, for all kinds of reasons) and about different views people have on an issue that is generally presented as a two-sided issue. I am pleased to see that most pro-life organizations are condemning his killing. This means that they don’t share the conviction of the assassin that the life of a fetus is somehow of the same value as that of humans.
I’m assuming that most members of the Mind on Fire community fit under the broad label of “Pro-Choice.” What I’d like to do is to tease out the differences between us. Hopefully we’ll find that the issue isn’t as black and white as it’s typically presented. It occurs to me that this entire issue is one of sliding value scales, except for the extremes at each end. I’m assuming that most of us see little wrong with preventing the implantation of a blastocyst. I’m also assuming that we would be troubled with the termination of a completely viable child that is nearly to term.
So, putting legality aside, where do you draw the moral lines about abortion? When would you feel that it is morally wrong to abort a fetus/child? What factors should be considered in the decision making? I’m not asking you to prescribe your morality–just to share your reasoning with us.
Also, this post is a sharing space, and not a place to attack or object to one another. xJane or I will delete any comments that attack another opinion, or that argue in favor of a particular position. I realize that feelings run strong on this topic, but let’s keep the focus on achieving understanding, even if we choose not to agree.
17 responses so far ↓
1 Michael Galli // Jun 5, 2009 at 2:18 pm
With morality in regards to a life, there shouldn’t be a gray area. My belief, based on the science at hand, is that something unique happens at conception. To consider it not a human, a single or two-cell organism that cannot survive on its own until “some” point in time during gestation, means to me that we disregard the basic standard of the beginning of life, conception.
I understand that there is not a single worldview medical consensus on when life begins. For my belief, it comes down to conception. The most compelling scientific argument I have read on this came from the Westchester Institute for Ethics & the Human Person. It is a white paper entitled “When Does Human Life Begin?” Here is the link: http://www.westchesterinstitute.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=351:white-paper&catid=64:white-papers&Itemid=113
2 Meryl // Jun 5, 2009 at 2:23 pm
I tend not to see a need for restrictions so much as maybe outreach by adoption agencies to women with viable fetuses. However, this grows from my somewhat odd beliefs about the soul, and I’m willing to accept a lot of restrictions for the sake of people who believe differently so long as early abortions and special cases (high probability of severe disability, abuse, young child mother) are excepted and birth control is made widely available. Also middle school sex ed needs to be very explicit and widespread. Kids should have heard the birth control message many, many times before the hormones hit.
3 Kaylen // Jun 5, 2009 at 2:31 pm
I feel that the decision to abort should be between a woman and her doctor. I don’t see any moral reason to put any limits on when during a pregnancy an abortion occurs.
Have you read this article? It’s a very interesting pro-choice vs. pro-choice debate.
4 Lessie // Jun 5, 2009 at 2:32 pm
While this is not helpful at all from a legal standpoint (but that wasn’t the point of your question anyway), whether or not an abortion is the right decision depends on the case. I have yet to hear about anyone actually aborting a fetus for flippant reasons.
I suppose that hypothetically, if a woman carried a perfectly viable, normal, healthy child to term and then decided at 32 weeks that she didn’t want it that would be difficult for all of us to fathom. But ultimately, I trust her and it’s none of my business. Having carried two children to term and lost one to miscarriage, I have faith that no woman would make that decision lightly. So even though I may not understand it, I wouldn’t judge it.
That’s not very clear, is it? I suppose because abortion is such a muddy issue…
One last try. While this may be too black and white, I don’t believe abortion is wrong. Painful and sad and scary and heartbreaking? Absolutely. But not wrong.
5 Bored in Vernal // Jun 5, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Did you ever read my “Pro-Love” essay at FMH? It was my attempt to step out of the box and think of the issue in terms of something other than Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice. The comments to that post were quite interesting, too.
My Pro-Love stance would of course DEPLORE the use of violence such as the murder of Dr. Tiller to support their political beliefs.
6 Taylor // Jun 5, 2009 at 4:20 pm
John, your comment about implantation got me thinking. In response to your question, that might be the “line” beyond which I personally start getting uncomfortable with abortion in cases other than rape/incest (cases in which the choice of the Mother relative to her participation in the original procreative act has been violated) or of life-threatening health (in which the choice of the mother to continue living at all is under serious threat.)
Without getting too graphic, the perfect miniature body of our stillborn first child has certainly flavored my thoughts on this issue. Having been there (granted, from the male perspective) and having held her in my own hands, it’s awfully hard for me to concede that our tiny “fetus/child” was neither “human” nor worth expending considerable energy to protect.
Similarly, after having observed the physical and emotional effects of the D&C and subsequent recovery on my dear wife, I’ve gotta say that the current “education” that groups like Planned Parenthood offer on the potential downsides are woefully inadequate at best, and viciously misleading at worst. Granted, I’m a guy, but that doesn’t make me any more anxious for women to unnecessarily go through this without having had the opportunity to make a truly informed choice.
One more little comment… You might reconsider the conclusion you reach at the end of the first paragraph in the OP. In the minds of most, the unbridled vigilantism of the killer is the issue, and not any discounting applied to the life of a fetus.
Although a few on the fringe have tried to draw attention to an equation balancing the life of Dr. Tiller on one hand against the lives of 60,000 or more fetuses on the other, the rule of law requires all citizens to seek justice through legal means, and *not* to take decisions about ending other individuals’ lives into their own hands, regardless of the “math.”
I think that BoredInVernal might have hit it on the head. Elective abortion is a symptom, and creating the “pro-love” world is the solution that removes the cause of the symptom.
7 Craig // Jun 5, 2009 at 4:44 pm
I’m strongly pro-choice, and fiercely support the right of a woman to choose. I don’t believe there should ever be put any legal restrictions on abortion, because whatever rule we could come up with, there would be situations that are an exception to the rule.
That said, I think our efforts should be focused not on attacking abortion (which is mainly a symptom), but on extensive, comprehensive sex education and health care. I believe that would eliminate a great many pregnancies that end in termination – the kinds that the most conservative feel the most strongly about preventing. Abortions necessary for the mental or physical health of the woman being in a category all their own, and I believe totally immune from reproach.
The question about whether a foetus is a human being with all the same rights as a breathing, independent individual is one I cannot answer. Obviously a blastocyst is not. But is a foetus in the latest stages of pregnancy which might possibly be viable?
Again I’m reticent at saying we ought to forbid such abortions (even non-medically necessary ones) because as soon as the government can say what we can and cannot do with our own bodies, I worry greatly. To me that is a more dangerous line to cross.
8 Physiology PhD Mama // Jun 5, 2009 at 5:37 pm
A few thoughts.
I am pro-choice because I have an active imagination and can think of many examples of when abortion would be a right choice, such as if my life was in grave danger if I choose to go through with the pregnancy.
Also, I agree that the bigger issue that needs to be addressed is the cause of intended pregnancy and why people make the choice of abortion. Having a child myself, I can say that America is not a very kid-friendly place. Examples: Mothers get no paid family leave like they do in 167 other countries. Lactation consultants aren’t covered by insurance. Etc.
Also, I think the government and other entities already puts lots of restrictions on what we can and can’t do with our bodies so I see that as a line that has already been crossed so that argument isn’t one I personally subscribe to.
9 leisurelyviking // Jun 5, 2009 at 9:05 pm
While I think there are plenty of situations in which I myself would believe it was wrong to choose abortion, I don’t think it should be legislated. I think I’m more utilitarian on this issue than on many others. Botched abortions are the #1 killer of women in their 20s and 30s worldwide. In 1700s Europe, something like 40% of babies were abandoned, often to foundling homes where short supplies of nurses and disease epidemics led to child mortality rates of 60 – 90%. Some cultures have naming rituals that are synonymous with the time the child “becomes human” and abandonment or killing of the child before the ritual is performed is not punished by the community. In modern times, neglect is more prevalent than outright killing. In one study done in a favela in Brazil, mothers fed their infants with formula despite knowing that the contaminated water would likely kill their children. A few years later, the same community became much wealthier and the same women chose to breastfeed their babies, which had much higher survival rates. The prospect of motherhood can easily make women feel helpless and desperate, especially when they’re in a demanding economic situation. Of course, I would prefer that everyone had universal access to birth control and no babies ever had fatal defects, but I think that society as a whole is better off when women have control over their own reproduction. Note: the anecdotes in here mostly come from the book Mother Nature by Sarah Blaffer Hrdy (which I read recently for a class). If you’re at all interested in the sociobiology of motherhood it’s really good, and doesn’t actually imply that mothers are jerks who hate their children.
10 angryyoungwoman // Jun 5, 2009 at 9:42 pm
I am entirely pro-choice. I think abortion is sad and heartrending, but I also think it is private. If we want the abortion rate to go down, we must focus on prevention. I read a study about a year ago that found that abortion rates were about the same in countries where it was illegal as they were where it was legal. The only thing that effectively lowered abortion rates was sex ed and good access to birth control. I think if we focus on preventing unplanned pregnancies we will find the abortion rate going down. Unfortunately, many “pro-lifers” are also adamantly anti-contraception.
As for late-term abortion, at this point, in the US, two doctors have to agree that it is medically necessary for a woman to get a late-term abortion. Either the fetus is not viable or the health/life of the mother is at serious risk. About one-fifth of one percent of late term abortions are not for the above stated reasons.
The family I was raised in was (is) very extreme in their “pro-life” views. When I was about ten, my mom described what she called a “partial birth abortion” at the dinner table. It was much more gruesome than the actual procedure. I was told that women have abortions simply because they want to kill babies and that abortion was like the modern holocaust. In fact, I was told that abortion was invented by the Nazis and was still being used as a form of eugenics. It wasn’t until I was older and actually knew some women who had had abortions and didn’t hate their babies, who, in fact, wanted desperately to have babies, but were in terrible circumstances, that I realized how wrong the things I’d been taught were. I can’t help but look back and mourn.
11 chosha // Jun 6, 2009 at 1:34 am
I think that where choice is taken from a woman in regards to having sex, that if she gets pregnant abortion is justified, even if the child is (which it is) not to blame for what has happened. I think that a pregnancy that threatens the life of the mother is also a reasonable case for abortion, even moreso if she has other children.
When I do think it’s morally wrong to end the life of the fetus is when you are doing it just because you can’t be assed facing up to your responsibilities as a person who had unprotected sex or knew full well that sometimes condoms break.
However, having said that, I also don’t think that my moral perspective should be legislated so that other women are bound by it. There are lots of moral decisions I don’t think should be legislated. So morally I tend towards pro-life and legally I am firmly pro-choice.
12 xJane // Jun 6, 2009 at 7:31 am
I’ve a wonderful book, Wise Woman Herbal for the Childbearing Year, which outlines various ways of encouraging fertility, implantation, lactation, &c. It also discusses abortion, including herbal abortificants. What it encourages is a thoughtful decision by the woman—which may include discussion with her partner, her mother, her friends, and her healer (whether an herbalist or a medical doctor). This is the kind of abortion I wish for everyone who has one: a decision made with full support of the woman’s community (who understand that it is, ultimately, her choice), who stand by her and offer whatever is needed.
When is too late? When the woman carrying the pregnancy decides it is.
13 Noli Irritare Leones » Blog Archive » Imaginary Babies. Never turn out wrong. // Jun 6, 2009 at 12:35 pm
[...] John of Mind on Fire, who’s also part of my Quaker meeting, has a thread in which he asks … So, putting legality aside, where do you draw the moral lines about abortion? When would [...]
14 xJane // Jun 9, 2009 at 9:45 am
I was just sent a link to this, which I think is extremely pertinent to this discussion:a med student discusses her changing views on abortion.
15 eBrown // Jun 9, 2009 at 2:24 pm
I trust women.
16 JohnW // Jun 15, 2009 at 11:35 pm
I listened to a discussion about the “life begins at conception” point of view and came to the conclusion that most people won’t actually equate aborting a pregnancy resulting from incest with killing a three year old child who resulted from incest.
Which is what that point of view demands.
17 xJane // Jun 16, 2009 at 8:02 am
JohnW: I wholly agree! the people who argue that there should be no abortion except in cases of rape or incest generally have not thought their position through (they are generally “life begins at conception” folks who want to make concessions).
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