60 responses so far ↓

• 1 Kathee // Jan 13, 2009 at 4:31 am

  I haven’t considered myself to be a Mormon for a long time (although the Church still has my name on their records). I don’t get contacted by home teachers or other Mormons from the area where I live–so I guess I’ve never felt a need to formally renounce my membership. I suppose in part I don’t want to alienate my family who has been mostly supportive of my decision to leave. But there’s a part of me, too, that doesn’t want to grant power to the institution. If I ask for a temple divorce or if I ask for my name to be removed from Church records that implies I believe that the Church’s records matter . . . and I guess I don’t believe that they do. I’m not a Mormon because I say I’m not a Mormon.

• 2 Tim // Jan 13, 2009 at 5:40 am

  I found it odd that marriage, and a silly ring, really did change how I thought and felt. Partnership should be the same, right? Yet I never felt the same security, or fantasized about fading into ninety together before it. It affected a lot of subtler, longer thought arcs in me. I’d burn it to make sure I was free, that I was using a palette of new, unmuddied colors and charting on a path of fresh vectors.

  Meanwhile, a friend mentioned how odd it was to see the asymmetry of marriage, a gigantic social ritual and defining event– versus one a letter from a lawyer dissolving it. The paper’s pretty thin in comparison and doesn’t exactly close the door emotionally.

  After all your involvement, your long journey, why not counter it with your own ritual? An end that’s a beginning, marking exploration of a world full of mystery, the sanctity of open-mindedless, and delicious inconclusiveness! Invite witnesses, members of your own new church of life, for reflection, the exchange of once forbidden ideas– and why not celebrate with the enjoyment of once forbidden delectables!

• 3 sarah k. // Jan 13, 2009 at 5:55 am

  The only reason I don’t give it up is that many family members would be hurt. And I care more about them than I do about the church, as disgusted as I am. And of all my family members that have not been active for years, none of them have gone to the trouble of resigning. But if you continue to define yourself by your membership, maybe now’s the time.

• 4 Zach Alexander // Jan 13, 2009 at 9:19 am

  I might sit on it a bit longer, until I was sure.

• 5 Shelly // Jan 13, 2009 at 9:54 am

  This is a tough one.

  I find myself struggling to either commit or reject to something and not being able to. I am not ready to let go of my card nor am I ready to attach myself to another organization.

  And part of it is relative -like Sarah. Actually disconnecting from the church might prove more damaging than I’m willing to risk right now.

  You raise a good point about being able to critique as a member (active or not) feels much different than being an ex-mormon. Several years ago one of my family members left the church and shortly after that became incredibly hostile towards the church and church members. She went from ex-mormon to anti-mormon if a few short steps.

  I vowed that I would never become that way and keeping my membership, in some weird way, keeps me from being anti-mormon.

  Not sure this helps – but just my perspective.

• 6 C. L. Hanson // Jan 13, 2009 at 10:48 am

  I had a whole running drama about this over on MSP.

  I will resign my membership at some point, but I haven’t yet. I think on some level it’s that — if I’m going to take time out from the hundred million other items on my to-do list and finish up some annoying, outstanding paperwork, I feel like I should start with my application for French citizenship. I care about that more than I care about whether I’m listed on the rolls of LDS Inc., yet I haven’t been able to clear up my schedule sufficiently to bother…

• 7 Eric // Jan 13, 2009 at 11:51 am

  It sounds like you have decided that you are the author of your own personal definition. Since you do not wish to be defined by the church, I guess the best question to ask is why do you need them to define you as a non/ex member.

  Is it a ritual you need to perform for yourself?

  Do you need to check it off your list to feel free?

  When I left I was done I didn’t need to return… I have no ill feelings and the church holds no sway over me. I am not a member and I don’t need the church to tell me that.

  Besides, and for me this is the most compelling part of my argument, I don’t have patience for the process. I wait enough in lines at the DMV, the Doctor’s Office, School, Target, and the ballpark, for things I need and want; it seems ridiculous to wait for decisions and all the paperwork to be completed for something that is irrelevant to me.

• 8 Mike // Jan 13, 2009 at 1:46 pm

  It sounds like you’ve been mormoned. Please do your part to get the verb tense of the word into the vernacular. It’s the least you could do.

• 9 Simone // Jan 13, 2009 at 2:34 pm

  I don’t think there are any good reasons to hold on to an affiliation with the LDS church if you are not a believer. Especially because retaining your membership allows the church to use you for its own ends. For example, the church uses its membership numbers to legitimize itself in the eyes of others – eyes that include those of potential converts. You’re giving them power through inaction.

  Also, people leaving the church is one of the things that may have actually spurred change in the past. Since you won’t be moving up in the ranks and probably don’t have much sway with active members anyway, making a statement through resignation may be one of the only ways that you’ll be noticed.

  That being said, of course the Mormon church doesn’t define you if you don’t want it to – beyond how it has shaped you through past events. But, currently, you define part of the Mormon church in a way that they have most of the control over.

• 10 John // Jan 13, 2009 at 5:17 pm

  I’m amazed at the diversity of reasons for keeping/removing one’s name from the church records. Some I anticipated or had heard before, but some of these are new.

  While I agree with those of you who said that one’s own self-definition is generally enough to define whether or not one is Mormon, I feel the need for the ritual that Tim describes. I’m a big believer in the social and cognitive power of rites of passage (and I went through a lot on my entry into Mormonism–baptism, temple, mission). Even though I don’t define myself as Mormon, I continue to obsess with some church issues. Removing my name may be just the formal rite that will help me to cross that threshold in my mind.

• 11 Mark // Jan 13, 2009 at 5:40 pm

  If you don’t go to church, what good is it holding onto the “card?” You would probably do better being outside and talking to the home teachers when they call. And what about all the $ that could be sent to Haiti or the charity of your choice instead of tithing, if you’re still doing it? This coming from a person who was inside the LDS community, and has many of the same philosophical orientations as yourself (Quaker, Shinto – but not atheist.)

  BTW, Family is the only important tie I would consider, and you can go inactive w/out tithing (I think) . Family only due to LDS theology with regard to family, and the disappointment they would incur.

• 12 Elise // Jan 13, 2009 at 5:42 pm

  Very interesting discussion – I think it comes down to making sure you are making the decision for yourself. If you have any lingering reasons to keep your formal membership, do. If you have an urge to remove it, do. I feel like I got bullied into removing my name, so it was a bad experience because it wasn’t for myself. Were I making the decision again, I would value the similarities I have to several unique Mormon faith ideas as well as my family heritage in the institution enough that I would probably hang on to my membership, even if I didn’t intend on practicing or affiliating anymore. Despite the time-consuming difficulties of removing your name, reversing that decision is even more un-appealing.

  Even though I wouldn’t remove my name if give the choice today, I also don’t intend to ever submit to authoratative rituals required to reverse it – baptism/confirmation. There is something empowering about speaking your voice and having them take action (removing your name), and something quite the opposite of submitting to what I believe is imagined and detrimental authority. That’s why I don’t feel it grants power to the institution to acknowledge it in asking your name be taken off – I think it can actually grant power to the individual because he/she can directly alter the relationship by a simple written request.

• 13 Jim // Jan 13, 2009 at 6:33 pm

  Could I ask a favour? Can you come to the thread linked below on my blog and offer an opinion in a “debate” I’m having with a paid up member of the Joseph Smith fan club. Thanks in advance.

  http://howgoodisthat.wordpress.com/2009/01/09/joseph-smith-was-a-liar-and-a-fraud/

• 14 Wintermute // Jan 13, 2009 at 8:22 pm

  These are issues I deeply struggle with, notwithstanding some really profound spiritual experiences and genuine blessings that I attribute to my relationship with Mormonism. I’ve considered leaving, but haven’t yet (and don’t imagine I will any time soon). When it comes down to it, when I seriously consider leaving (which basically means when I consider turning over my TR), it feels to me personally like a cop out. It’s not guilt, more like I’m just using my concerns as a rather disingenuous pretext for taking the easy way out rather than continuing to deal with the messy, difficult, challenging, but nonetheless richly rewarding experience of continuing to make the Mormons my people and the Mormon God my God. I think that if I do get to the point where leaving no longer feels like a cop out, that I will leave. As long as it does, I’m sticking it out.

• 15 Greg // Jan 13, 2009 at 8:33 pm

  Sad to think what you’re giving up. Leaving the Church violates promises you made to God. It affects not only your relationship with your family, but with all those in your family line that preceded you and those who will follow you.

  Somewhere on the other side of the veil, there is a chorus of concerned voices telling you to not throw away something precious. There are perhaps your future children who are praying that the promises you made to them will not be forsaken. There are ancestors who would grieve your loss from their family in the eternities.

  Satan is real. He urges us to act out of pride and out of selfishness. The Spirit of God would lead you to humbly consider the impact that violating your covenants will have on those who love you and those to whom you owe love and loyalty.

  Please reconsider it.

• 16 Anti-Greg // Jan 13, 2009 at 9:24 pm

  Greg is a dumbass who is wasting his life away. You made it. Greg sadly didn’t. Greg will never be able to fully express who he is because of his terrible addiction to Mormonism. It’s sad but we’ll have to let him go.

• 17 Jeremy // Jan 13, 2009 at 9:27 pm

  Let. It. Go. I left the church six years ago (excommunicated for adultery) and it’s the best thing I ever did. I served an honorable mission, but while on my mission learned that the most important person I had to answer to was myself. Once I started to do that, my whole life up to that point unraveled. Best thing I ever did.

• 18 Jeremy // Jan 13, 2009 at 9:30 pm

  I’ve read a few more comments and I have to say that fear of social repercussions are largely overblown. Yes, your family will be disappointed. They’ll get over it. They’re too self-consumed to pay you much mind after a short amount of time. Trust me. After six months or maybe a year, it won’t even come up in conversation. And you may find that some of your family actually relate MORE with you after you leave and give up the whole “I’m righteous” bit.

• 19 Mark // Jan 13, 2009 at 10:19 pm

  To think that it would even be a question of whether to stay in the religion/cult or not, shows the disturbing hold it has attained on you. Cults and religions weaken those who buy into them. Good luck if you think you can get out.

• 20 angryyoungwoman // Jan 13, 2009 at 11:00 pm

  I was considering “officially” leaving (I don’t consider myself mormon at all, anymore), but then I read that even when you do make it official, the church still keeps your name on its rolls (they mark that you’re out, but keep your name and information) and uses it in their membership count (so the millions of members might not even be members anymore). At that point, it just seemed like a waste of time.

  I am considering making myself officially Unitarian, though, just as a way to release the church’s vicegrip–and so I can get those blasted men (home teachers? ward missionaries?) from knocking on my door every couple of months to tell me where the church is and which ward I’m in (my dad gave them my address–errrggghh).

• 21 Julie // Jan 14, 2009 at 1:01 am

  LEAVE! there is no good reason to stay and you have no idea the weight and stress that will lift off you when you finally let it go. Its been 2 years for me and it was the best decision I have ever made in my life.

  It took us a long time to ‘come out’ to our families (me and my DH who had been married in the temple) but eventually we did and while it was tough at first they have gotten used to it and our relationship with them is even better than it was.

• 22 Andrew S // Jan 14, 2009 at 2:05 am

  I look at it like this: since the church isn’t contacting me about anything, I effectively do less if I don’t take the hassle to formally resign than I do if I do formally resign (because then, not only do I have to make the letter, but I have to concern myself with local Bishopric members [or others] getting nosy and refusing to expedite the process).

  Obviously, it’s different if people *are* contacting you.

• 23 John C. // Jan 14, 2009 at 4:37 am

  John, if you make this choice, we’ll miss you. Not as a critic, nor as a source of revenue. We’ll miss you as we miss a brother. Good luck on your journey where ever it leads. God bless you.

• 24 bill // Jan 14, 2009 at 5:49 am

  joining a church seems to imply a partnership… a formal relationship was established. it sounds like (and there are many comments to echo these sentiments) you have unilaterally decided the partnership is not for you, you have already “left”, emotionally and spiritually.

  i believe it is unethical for you to not formally let the other party in the partnership know that you have left. thats the cowardly way out.

  have the gonadinal fortitude to cut off the relationship and move on. quit being a wuss.

• 25 Sean // Jan 14, 2009 at 7:21 am

  John:

  I don’t understand how anyone except you can answer the question you have posed. If you don’t believe the church’s teachings are true, why would you be a member of it? On the other hand, if you do believe it, why would you leave it?

  Coming to a knowledge of the truth of the matters asserted by the church to be true is inherently an individual, spiritual matter, that has nothing to do with anyone else.

  If I didn’t believe the church were true, I would not be a member of it. My belief in it arises out of experiences that are entirely personal to me. They have nothing to do with the institutional church and the good or bad acts it has supposedly done in the past. Nor does it have much to do with anyone else’s opinion. My decision to follow the institutional church arose out of my intensely personal spiritual experiences.

  In other words, whether someone leaves or stays in the church should have little (if anything) to do with the institutional church or with the opinions of third parties. It should have everything to do with the answers you receive from above as to what you should do.

  I have much more respect for someone who enters or exits the church on the basis of answers they believe they have received from God, than for any reason having to do with the institutional church or the opinions of others. Neither of those groups can even begin to answer the fundamental question of whether the church’s teachings are true or false.

• 26 John // Jan 14, 2009 at 7:39 am

  It’s interesting that both believers and skeptics suggest that membership should be based wholly on belief. This is ideal, but totally ignores relationships with family members. Call me spineless, but I do care about my wife’s opinion of me, and while my continued membership was important to her I chose to keep my name on the books. Now that she’s fine with my removing my name, I’m finally giving it serious consideration.

• 27 John // Jan 14, 2009 at 7:43 am

  John C., thanks for well wishes. They are appreciated.

  Wintermute, I respect your decision. Many of my friends are in the same boat. For me, the messiness wasn’t worthy giving up my sanity, and it made me spend so much time dealing with Mormon issues that it detracted me from others. But the decision is definitely different for each individual.

  One more clarification to some of you who are new to this site: I haven’t attended LDS church for a couple of years now. This post is about severing just the remaining formal tie.

• 28 Matt W. // Jan 14, 2009 at 7:47 am

  I love the Church, with all its faults. Good luck with whatever decisions you make.

  I wish you’d stay because I believe the church is really God’s organization for the world’s benefit. But I understand you’re just on the roles, and as far as I know, going to the quaker church. So basically, you aren’t really a member of the church now, so having your name on the roles doesn’t help you better be a critic of the stuff you see wrong with the church, because you aren’t actively doing anything by having your name on the roles. Maybe if you were going to church every week, bearing your testimony of the truth of the book of Mormon, following all the praxis of the church, and fighting along the lines of “It’s my church too!” then that would have been effective, but I understand that that can be really hard and perhaps go against your sense of integrity. So maybe you should cut your losses.

  Of course I think it is wrong to do that, because I think the church is awesome and true and all that jazz, but I hold no ill will to you as you take a different path. I hope only for the best for you.

  But I will pray for you, according to my beliefs, that God will return his son to himself.

• 29 Huston // Jan 14, 2009 at 7:55 am

  I think like Sean. The only good reason to join or stay in a church is because one has a spiritual witness of its truth; the only good reason to leave a church is because that tetsimony isn’t there. Of course, I would urge anyone without that testimony to gain (or regain) it, but if that’s not something that’s welcome, then we live and let live.

  Reading these comments gives me a perspective I hadn’t thought of before: are there really that many “technical” members of the LDS Church who only keep their names on the rolls to spare the feelings of loved ones? I’m curious, is that an assumption that people have made (that not officially leaving the church altogether makes family members feel better), something that has been unspoken but surmised, or an actual request made by well-meaning relatives? Just how much peace is kept up when someone cuts off their life from the church, but refrains from the last step? (In my experience, not much, but that’s hardly universal.) If it’s meaningful to loved ones, then maybe that is a good reason to not completely jump ship, but (especially if that’s not the case) part of me sees that as intellectually dishonest. Shouldn’t someone be all the way in or all the way out?

  Ultimately, though, I’d urge people not to leave this or any other church because they see strains of “racism, sexism, or homophobia.” If the church is true, then that misperception needs correcting; if it isn’t true…then that’s your reason to leave.

• 30 John // Jan 14, 2009 at 8:21 am

  Matt W., I did try as you suggested, for years. It was quite a struggle. But thank you.

  Huston and others, you’d be surprised at how many silent doubters there are, who attend to avoid making waves. Furthermore, Church leadership rarely takes the “if you don’t believe it, leave it” approach–they almost always encourage doubting members to stay on. There are many reasons for this.

  As much as the belief component of Mormonism is emphasized, it’s also a lot like Judaism, in that as long as you continue practicing, you can still be a member of the social community in lots of significant ways. Many family members may not care what your questions are, as long as you keep wearing the garments, abstaining from alcohol, and baptize your own kids in the church. Church leadership doesn’t discourage these pressures in any way, though they’d prefer the belief was there to back it up.

• 31 Greg // Jan 14, 2009 at 9:19 am

  Let me just suggest a comparison. In the spirit of meekness, I reminded John that his actions have repercussions beyond himself. As it is said, “no man is an island. ” Satan tends to get people to focus simply on themselves and ignore their loved ones. So far, I’m the only one here that’s telling you to act unselfishly and consider the impact your actions have on others.

  The spirit that “Anti-Greg” manifests here is pure hostility. He is from exmormon.org, a virulent anti-Mormon site. All you have to do is consider the hatred he manifests in just a few words. Is that what you wish to become?

  Don’t listen to me if you don’t care, but you also shouldn’t be listening to the voices that are luring you to break sacred obligations to people who love and care about you.

• 32 bill // Jan 14, 2009 at 9:28 am

  the phrase “courage of your convictions” comes to mind. you should be true to yourself. When I married, I told my wife that my most important relationship was not with her. And when we had children, I told them they were 3rd priority. My relationship with my God is paramount.
  Kowtowing to family presure makes the eventual emergence of the lie a serious blow to your character and credibility. … Being revealed as a hypocrite has some drawbacks in life. All of this presumes the absence of doubt on your part. If doubt remains, then by all means, continue your investigation and decide for yourself. In LDS parlance, you can’t survive on someone elses testimony. you have to know for yourself.

• 33 John // Jan 14, 2009 at 9:33 am

  Greg, I came close to not letting anti-Greg’s comment through, because it includes a borderline personal attack (“dumb-ass” is fairly tame and harmless compared to much of what I turn away). So in that context, while it’s kinda rude, I wouldn’t go so far to say that it’s “pure hostility” or “hatred.” If you’d like, I could point you to what that looks like.

  That said, I pretty much left the church over two years ago, and I did so with my family. If I want evidence of what I may become, I can just look at my beloved partner, who embodies compassion and community, and who has been much more at peace since leaving the Church. I’d like to be more like her.

• 34 John // Jan 14, 2009 at 9:42 am

  Bill, I kinda agree with you, but the problem is, we don’t all arrive at our convictions overnight. For me, it was a hugely complicated journey, with lots of questioning, back-and-forthing, and gray areas in between as I transitioned from one set of convictions to another. You’ve missed the middle of the story (not that I expect you or anyone to read it all!), and are commenting only on the end.

  What really prolonged my struggle was that the church encouraged my hypocrisy. It was fine with the truth when I agreed with it; but when it was at odds, it still worked hard to keep me around. It took some effort to pull away from all that.

  For this reason, I have understanding and compassion for those who struggle on in the church even if they have serious questions. The situation is rarely as black or white as most bystanders try to make it.

• 35 Eric // Jan 14, 2009 at 10:08 am

  In my journey which has led me away from the church I have come to discover there is no religion that has cornered the market on truth.

  I appreciate Greg’s comments because he is a believer and his set of beliefs are contradicted by making the decision that you are deliberating on. As for his admonition on anti-Greg I would encourage you to take with “a grain of salt” the voices trying to convince you to define your spiritual journey by the constructs of their chosen religion.

  If there is one constant about mankind we are a ritual people, and we seek out ritual to define ourselves and to practice our spirituality. If your spiritual journey requires this ritual of transition then you must be true to yourself and your journey.

  In the LDS religion once you stop keeping the covenants you make there really is no difference than if you were removed from the records of the church. As far as the loved ones you stand to harm. It is the LDS belief that everyone will get to hear and accept or reject the gospel for themselves. Unfortunately Greg’s argument is an example of the fear mongering that most religions use to prevent attrition. i.e. “if you won’t do it for yourself do it for everyone you love”.

  The truth is you may disappoint loved ones, but then every decision you make has that potential. You don’t prevent anyone else from making their spiritual journey as they see fit. And most importantly you will honor yourself and your spiritual journey… and that is what is most important.

  Good Luck in your decision.

• 36 greg // Jan 14, 2009 at 10:20 am

  There are some curious things at work here. First of all, I question your motives as to why you feel that a public forum like this is the appropriate place to consider such a private decision. It’s almost the same as if you had said, “I’m thinking of divorcing my wife–what’s your opinion everybody?”

  The fact that you apparently have already ceased to practice your religion two years ago (a private decision which I respect) is at odds with the public airing of your discontent here. Is it your intent to just solicit support from those who encourage you to forsake your covenants?

  If not, I would encourage you to reevaluate privately with your family and drop this whole public process. All you’re doing is inviting people who are hostile to the Church to have access to your decision-making process. They have their own agenda which does not include the well-being of your loved ones.

  I have counseled with members who were struggling through the temptation process. Satan is real, though others may ridicule that belief. He works in a very consistent manner in these cases. First he gets an individual to begin to justify some act of disobedience. Perhaps the person has trouble with a moral issue, like masturbation or pornography, same-sex attraction, or habits like drinking alcohol, using drugs, etc.

  The person struggles through for a time, but he becomes discouraged. He cloaks his actions in secrecy and the secrecy isolates him from his or her spouse, children, parents, friends, and church leaders. Alone, with dark thoughts, he begins to doubt. He ceases to be grateful for the blessings he enjoys, because his dark secrets prevent him from fully enjoying them. The feeling of unworthiness keeps him or her from feeling blessed.

  Satan continues to bind up the person in this isolation with resentment. The individual comes to resent Church leaders or home teachers who encourage continued obedience. The person resents spouse and children who represent obstacles in what is becoming a selfish quest for freedom without consequences.

  Eventually, the person begins to blame others and the Church for their unhappiness. The situation only appears “gray” because of the loss of spiritual perspective.

  Here are the black and white truths:

  God is real. He is loving and forgiving. He will never break a covenant. The Holy Ghost will never prompt anyone to violate their covenants.
  Wickedness never brings happiness. Selfishness destroys trust and disappoints our loved ones. Satan’s tactics are designed to create those shades of gray.

  What should a person do who is in your circumstance, where all looks gray, where wrong and right become blurred? Keep the commandments. Faith only becomes necessary when we no longer have knowledge. Exercise faith and be thankful for any and every blessing you have. Gratitude dispels darkness. It improves spiritual insight and vision.

  Every good thing in my life has come to me from my faith and my association with the Church. I am truly very blessed and I am grateful for the clarity to be able to see and enjoy those blessings. Such clarity comes from yielding one’s heart up to God. I hope you will see that the peace you are seeking is in your rear-view mirror. It’s not too late to change course.

• 37 Eric // Jan 14, 2009 at 10:43 am

  Greg,

  I cannot speak for John, but the public square is a great place for having this conversation and getting input to make this decision. You are a believer in your faith and that is great because it works for you I would exhort you to continue in your faith because it gives you the hope and the joy you are looking for.

  However because of your beliefs you will not accept that there is any other true path but the one you are on. I won’t try to persuade you otherwise because there is no value in having that conversation.

  What you are missing in this discussion is that no one here is discussing whether or not to believe the teachings of the LDS Church. We are discussing the pros and cons of removing ones name from the rolls of the church when you no longer believe it is true.

  Your comments amount to fear tactics… and serve only to alienate you from others. A gospel of love can never be promoted by fear. John and many others here have made the decision to leave in practice. Some have left officially, others like John are deciding whether to make official the departure they have made spiritually.

  If you don’t want to further the discussion we are having that is fine but I think that the fear based rhetoric for remaining a member of the church is neither appropriate or necessary for this discussion.

• 38 John // Jan 14, 2009 at 10:55 am

  Greg, I want to address the public airing question. I do so less to validate my decision, but to validate others’. One of the reasons why so many doubters in Mormonism struggle in solitude is because of the double standard applied by the church. Proclaiming the faith and bringing souls to Christ has extremely public components, even if the decision and conversion is considered individual and private. People questioning, challenging, leaving the Church are generally not allowed this by the Church culture. Instead, they are counseled to keep things quiet and private, and are generally shamed by family and the church culture.

  Greg, you probably don’t see this because you haven’t spent much time here, but there is a thriving community of former and post-Mormons (who aren’t just bitter and angry) and doubting/questioning Mormons who love and support one another, and validate each other against the monolith of the Church (and of other churches and patriarchal religions). We used to be alone, but thanks to the internet, and blogging, and facebook, and sunstone and friendships built offline, we’re no longer alone. It’s a good community with many beautiful people who have the courage to follow their convictions. It’s them I’m talking to. You’re well intentioned, I know, but you should know that you’re coming across not as meek, but as superior, as someone who presumes to know all the causes for my spiritual journey. Keep the commandments, exercise faith and my doubt will depart? Been there, done that–for years! I’ve tested the seed, and the tree bore bad fruit. If god exists, he’s not going to condemn me for that.

  And I am grateful. I’m grateful for my skeptic friends. I’m grateful for the peace I feel for following my own convictions (btw, Monson has said that peace is the one feeling that Satan can’t counterfeit, for what it’s worth). I’m grateful for the peace that increases in my life the more I distance myself from Mormonism.

  Anyhow, I agree with Eric. You’ve moved beyond respect and have suggested that immorality, Satan, wickedness are at the root of all this. I haven’t insulted you by suggesting that you are misguided or motivated by evil. If you can’t have a civil conversation, I’m not really interested in discussing any further. Cheers, Greg. Best of luck on your own journeys.

• 39 Greg // Jan 14, 2009 at 11:01 am

  Eric,

  I would disagree that instilling fear is my intent, unless you equate fear with family obligations, keeping promises, and honoring vows.

  It is a common thing for those who rebel to equate shame with fear. Shame is an appropriate emotion in this instance. All I have done is emphasize that no one acts in a vacuum. That should not cause fear unless one doubts the rightness of one’s decisions.

  I would estimate that the reason this entire discussion is occuring is that, despite his leaving the Church in practice, John is realizing that it is a serious decision to consciously break promises made to God. If John didn’t feel some degree of hesitancy about doing so, he wouldn’t have sought reinforcement from others for the decision.

  All I have done is talk about personal responsibility to others. That’s hardly fear-mongering.

  I have no desire to be contentious about this. That would be counterproductive. As John weighs his decision, at least I have put some weight in the other side of the scales. The fact that this discussion is taking place at all is evidence that, in the deepest corner of his heart, he knows that removing his name from the Church does harm to himself and those he loves.

  John, I hope you will choose to remain a member of the Church and return to fellowship someday. That said, I have nothing more to say.

• 40 Andrew S // Jan 14, 2009 at 11:01 am

  I think it’s not so clear-cut as to say that you join the church when you believe in it and you leave it when you disbelieve it. Or rather, it’s not clear-cut because there are completely different ideas in leaving the church. The first is in not going to church, finding a different church (if that floats your boat, etc.,) John’s already done that. Effectively, he’s not a member.

  But the second thing is the accounting. Telling it to Salt Lake. Like lots of bureaucratic things, this isn’t usually a natural thing. Which is particularly why so many inactives/ex-members are on the rolls but haven’t gone to church, may not believe, or may actually be active members of other churches and the LDS church is none the wiser.

  Re 29. Huston, I’d say there definitely is a significant social and technical component. Mormonism isn’t just a church…it’s a culture. So, you can leave the church and even become a member of another church, but this won’t necessarily mean that you walk away from your family, your friends, and what you recognize is a part of yourself (and this part need not be spiritually fulfilling — obviously, for exmembers, the church wasn’t spiritually fulfilling)

  So, asking people to be “all the way in or all the way out” oversimplifies issues.

• 41 John // Jan 14, 2009 at 11:15 am

  Andrew S: well summarized.

  Greg: whenever you bring satan into a discussion, you’re fearmongering. You’re literally demonizing your conversation partner here. And Hell is implied.

  “The fact that this discussion is taking place at all is evidence that, in the deepest corner of his heart, he knows that removing his name from the Church does harm to himself and those he loves.”

  Dude, Greg, do you read my comments at all? Let me be really clear:

  I do not believe, even in “the deepest corner of my heart,” that removing my name from the church rolls will not “harm those I love the most.” I wouldn’t even be having this discussion online if I didn’t already have the blessing of those I love most, and the only people whose opinion really matter to me.

• 42 Mark // Jan 14, 2009 at 12:07 pm

  Interesting, not sure why you would want to continue to belong to a group whom you no longer fundamentally agree with. I believe by continuing to hold on as a member that you most likely are holding on to some limitations.

• 43 This is what members of the church LITERALLY BELIEVE « Irresistible (Dis)Grace // Jan 14, 2009 at 12:30 pm

  [...] we start at Mind on Fire. John is considering resigning formally from the church. A lot of ex-mormons have feelings both [...]

• 44 xJane // Jan 14, 2009 at 2:34 pm

  I remember considering “removing my name” from my former church’s rolls. It took a lot of searching to find out how one was to accomplish that. Basically, I’d have to write two letters, one in German, to the churches who initiated me to the sacraments (luckily, there are only effectively two): the abbey that baptized/confirmed me and the church where I had my first reconciliation and communion. I decided it was more trouble than it was worth.

  I’d have to agree with both Kathee & Tim: do you need the church to validate your lack of belief? Absolutely not. Would be healing for you & your family to undergo some kind of ritual? Probably. I encourage you to come up with your own. Whether it’s burning the card in solitude or having an “I’m no longer Mormon!” party, creating our own rituals gives us power over ourselves and our futures by acknowledging choices we’ve made in the past.

  I’d like to call attention to the interesting dual views brought to us by believers bill and Greg: bill says, “relationship with […] God is paramount” and his wife is explicitly secondary, children tertiary. Greg says, “[leaving the church] affects […] your family” from ancestors to future issue. That one religion could produce such fervent and conflicting beliefs is, I imagine, one of the reasons you’re considering severing all ties to it.

  I also would like to say that I enjoyed the inside peek that your continued technical membership in the church provided during the whole Prop 8 “thing”. I would not say that you should stay a member for my sake, but take into account that you’ll no longer have such access as an official non-member.

• 45 bill // Jan 14, 2009 at 3:27 pm

  yo – xJane – is your inference that I am LDS? and it was a bit disingenuous to elide the word -MY- from the posting. I have no illusions that the God(s) others worship is/are the same as mine. I just try and make very clear to those with whom I have relationships with know where we stand. I think it is the mark of a coward to slink off and not inform the other party that the status quo has changed. Since John has clearly stopped being a Mormon, the honourable thing to do is to tell the Church that his status has changed. (This is true for all who leave the Church – forwhat ever reason) …

  Sure – have whatever rituals float your boat to celebrate your new found path… And its not that you need “the Church” to validate your life/behaviours. common decency dictates you should tell the other party that there has been a parting of the ways.

  As to belief… we all believe. Just not all in the same things. And certainly no one is required to share mine. But situational ethics is beyond the pale for me. Life does have any number of high contrast issues. There are absolutes in my world. Can’t speak to yours.

  What is interesting, as a tangentail issue is that “one religion” can harbor such an apparent wide range of belief. How many religions can make that claim?

• 46 xJane // Jan 14, 2009 at 7:31 pm

  Apologies, bill, I did assume that you were LDS. I was using your position as an exemplar of the contradictions I have often found within religions. I usually assume that I’m the only non-LDS ’round these parts (I used to be Catholic), sorry ’bout that.

  I omitted “my” from your posting very purposely, to support my argument as well as to make it fit better in context—but I don’t feel that doing so changed the thrust of your words, else I’d not have done it (like omitting the word “not” in such a sentence). I also omitted words from Greg’s quotation—more, actually—but still don’t feel that any injustice was done to either of you.

  As to “being honest”, the Church at large, whichever church it is, doesn’t care. The reality is that a priest or a bishop may well feel responsible for his (it’s always a he, isn’t it) flock, but the Church establishment, whether papal or presidential in nature, doesn’t care about one man. They may care esoterically, about losing a believer, but not specifically: that this man is “honest” to the point that he jumps through their bureaucratic hoops. Scratch that, they may well care that he jump through their hoops, so that they can feel justified in the power they hold over him.

  While common decency may well dictate that a friend tell another friend that they are no longer friends, the Church-believer relationship is nothing like friendship.

  I would be interested to take you up on your situational ethics comment, since I’m an Aristotelean—this is perhaps not the best forum, but it’s not a bad idea for a future post.

  Finally, it has been my experience that all religions can make that claim—that was my point in the first place.

• 47 Mark // Jan 15, 2009 at 5:20 am

  BTW, there are two “Marks” in the conversation, the Quaker/Shinto one (me) and another – I just don’t want our comments mixed. I’m signing out to minimize confusion.

• 48 JohnW // Jan 15, 2009 at 7:50 am

  I think the time to do this is the time when it doesn’t actually make a difference to you.

• 49 Ryan J // Jan 16, 2009 at 4:03 am

  “I think the time to do this is the time when it
  doesn’t actually make a difference to you” Well said John. I agree with this. For myself personally, I’ve reached this point with mormonism, but like C.L. Hanson said, I haven’t gotten around to it yet. It’s on my long list of chores to do, and since I try to finish my most important chores first, it keeps getting moved down lower on the list.

• 50 Bored in Vernal // Jan 18, 2009 at 8:41 am

  I know you have to be true to yourself. And I know that we can always be friends. But on some, mystical level, I would miss you.

• 51 Hava // Jan 18, 2009 at 12:35 pm

  I read through all of the comments (wow, what an active site!!) and although I haven’t read any of your past posts, I did want to say that I understand where you’re coming from, being in the same boat myself.

  My husband and I stopped attending church months ago, and when we told my family, my parents did NOT take it well. I was forced to meet with an Area 70′s guy because my mom was just sure that if I asked my questions to the right person, they’d get answered. (And for the record, no, they weren’t answered. He had no answers for any of my questions, mainly because there aren’t any answers. Hmmm…strange how that works).

  Anyway, here I am, months later, and I haven’t actually withdrawn my name from the records of the church. Why? I’m not really sure. I’m busy with other things; it’s not that important to me; I am who I am whether or not my name is on some roll somewhere in SLC, etc etc. I don’t have anyone coming to my house to try to draw me back into the Church (I think the bishop learned his lesson the one and only time he tried that – he didn’t like what happened and hasn’t been back since) and so I think just plain apathy has kept me from withdrawing my name.

  I was mightily pissed off at what happened with Prop 8 in California though, and even if I hadn’t already hated the Church at that point, that would have got me going. That whole thing was such a joke.

  Good luck in your decision. FWIW, I’d say to just do it. I guess I need to take my own advice, eh?

  Hava
  http://nonfictionlover.today.com

• 52 John // Jan 18, 2009 at 10:50 pm

  Mark-Quaker/Shinto!? Not too many of us out there!

  BiV, dear friend, no changes! My official situation will be different, but we’re both the same people!

  Hava, thanks for the advice and the support. I’m glad you were able to repel the initial church rescue mission. Is your husband’s family in the Church as well?

  JohnW and Ryan, I think I need the ritual to help me sever the connection. I *like* ritual! It establishes clarity. I don’t like this gradual fading away business.

• 53 Hava // Jan 18, 2009 at 10:55 pm

  Definitely – very active parents. My in-laws work in the temple, blah blah blah. We haven’t told them yet. :-} We’re wimps, what can I say? After everything we went through with my side of the family, we decided to take a break from destroying lives for a bit, until we felt strong enough mentally to complete the process. Having my beloved grandmother tell me that I was being controlled by Satan was heartrending.

  Leaving the LDS Church is by far the hardest thing I have ever done. It is not for the faint-hearted. I don’t recommend doing it just ’cause you’re bored one weekend. lol.

  Hava

• 54 Janelle // Jan 27, 2009 at 1:35 pm

  “I held onto it for this long because, quite frankly, I felt like I could be a more effective critic of the Church’s institutionalized racism, sexism, and homophobia as a member.”

  I am reminded of one of my personal heroes, Carol Lynn Pearson. You likely have heard of her, she’s a semi-famous author in mormon circles, for lots of stuff she’s done including “My Turn On Earth”

  The reason she’s my hero, though, is because later she became a bit of a mormon activist promoting homosexual rights and tolerance/love towards homosexuals within the mormon church. Nobody else is doing the work she’s doing as effectively as she’s doing it, because not only is she already a trusted and beloved mormon author whose voice we already know, already identified as “one of us” by mormons, but also her personal story resonates so deeply. She was married to a gay man and her story is heartbreaking. She wrote about it in her book “Goodbye I love you” which I think every mormon should be forced to read, because you can’t read her very sincere and heartfelt story, written from the perspective of a faithful believing mormon, and walk away with the same hateful stereotypes against homosexuals that so many mormons have.

  She followed it up with another book “No More Goodbyes”, which is about all the responses she got to her book, everyone else’s stories with homosexuality within the mormon religion. Some truly tragic, heartbreaking stories in there. Once again, a book that all mormons should be forced to read, and also a book with power to change hearts and minds in a way that an outsider never could.

  I could never be mormon again. I left the church and I couldn’t bring myself to pretend, even if there is potential to do good from within. But she is my hero for the work she is doing.

• 55 Melinda // Feb 13, 2009 at 7:30 pm

  John,

  I officially had myself taken off the records in November. I left Church in Jan 2002 because I couldn’t reconcile my personal beliefs with those of the LDS faith, nor could I ignore the discrepencies and half (and hidden) truths any longer. It contributed to my divorce (as did many other issues), and it broke the hearts of my parents and siblings, and others. But what a relief.

  For 8 years, that break was enough. But when the Chirch took an active stand against gay rights on Prop 8 even I was stunned. I had avoided the formal break and had even provided financial support to my parents serving a mission–it made them happy, right? I was worried that making it official would hurt them even more.

  But I came to the personal conclusion that I don’t have to make it an issue with them. At 38, it’s my call and, frankly, not really their business whether I’m on the books. Even though I was no longer attending, I know they saw me as a member and felt they had the right to track my moves, invite me to pay tithing each year, and invite me to the ocassional event. I was mortified to realize I was on the record with an org that saw value in ensuring others did not get basic human rights.

  It has been surprisingly easy and incredibly liberating. I will never lose the cultural heritage–but what a relief to be able to answer the question “Are you a member?” with a flat “No.” the personal and symbolic act of making it official took a weight off my shoulders.

  To each his and her own.

  M

  Ps. Please forgive typos and spelling goods–did this on iPhone touch screen.

• 56 Craig // Feb 14, 2009 at 12:34 am

  Wow, somehow I missed this whole post and the ensuing debate when I took my 3-week blogoholiday last month.

  Once I decided to resign, I didn’t really have any reason not to. The main reason I left was because it made me sick – physically ill – to know that I was officially a member of such a homophobic and abusive organisation. I felt that my name, my reputation was sullied by association.

  Unlike a lot of others here, I resigned very shortly after I stopped attending – just a month after I left BYU, and 6 months after the last time I went to church. I think a lot of that had to do with needing to do something to rid myself of all the bad memories and experiences that had to do with being raised since childhood in Mormonism and being gay. I needed to be able to tell myself that I wasn’t Mormon, and that the pain I had experienced for years wasn’t a part of my life anymore.

  I think that there are a lot of similar reasons we choose (or not as the case may be) to officially and legally resign from the church, but I think that no one can tell another person when the time is right. I knew it was right for me, and that it was something I had to do in order to move on with my life – similar to what you said, John in your original post. I didn’t want to be defined by my past, though I know it’s ever going to be a part of me.

  So, any update as to where you are on this?

• 57 John // Feb 15, 2009 at 3:04 pm

  Melinda, thank you so much for sharing your story (I hope we’ll be able to hear more over drinks the next time Jana and I are in your area). Like many others, the Church’s stance on Prop 8 is one factor in my wanting to go a step beyond mere non-attendance.

  Craig, it’s difficult for me to imagine what it would be like to be on the books for an organization that actively persecuted and vilified you.

  As for me, I’m to the point now where there’s no doubt that this is what I need/want to do. I just need to get around to it. I may even try this week.

• 58 Ryan J // Feb 15, 2009 at 7:35 pm

  “As for me, I’m to the point now where there’s no doubt that this is what I need/want to do. I just need to get around to it. I may even try this week.” No doubt John? Don’t say no doubt please. That reminds me too of my religious upbringing Seriously though, it sounds like you’ve already made up your mind. I look forward to reading your official post-Mormon writing, whenever that may be…

  Best, Ryan

• 59 xJane // Feb 15, 2009 at 10:47 pm

  While I will never say that my experience was anything like yours, Craig, I really identify with this: “I needed to be able to tell myself that I wasn’t Mormon, and that the pain I had experienced for years wasn’t a part of my life anymore.” I think that’s a major reason I claim “heathen/pagan”—to be able to tell myself that I’m not Catholic any more and that that’s all behind me.

• 60 Lowell Johnson // Mar 12, 2009 at 6:56 am

  I felt a great deal of freedom when I resigned. Do know they will send you a letter stating that there is a 30 day wait before they will remove your name. They will also probably have the local Bishop contact you. That aside, it is still worth the process.

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