21 responses so far ↓

• 1 Nathan // Nov 14, 2008 at 9:04 am

  Where was this energy and organization before the election?

  Does it reflect a gay mindset accustomed to fighting *oppression* as opposed to standing up for established standards.

  Simply put, are gays better at ‘fighting back’ than ‘fighting for’?

  On another note, it is interesting that YESers make their voices heard by saying “Yes on 8″ and NOers do the same by saying “Fuck you!” and flashing the bird.

  Can’t gays be upset and passionate without being obscene? Again, it seems to indicate a substratum of vulgarity that reflects the deviant nature of the behavior that they embrace.

• 2 John // Nov 14, 2008 at 9:24 am

  Nathan, this comment is provocative to the point of being inflammatory without being constructive. Let me remind you that mind on fire is a gay-friendly blog; I’m going to let this comment pass, but if you don’t tone down your rhetoric (“deviant behavior”, etc.) in your next comments I will not hesitate to delete them. Please consider communicating in a way that respects the gays that participate in this blogging community and that encourage them to respond with some honest openness rather than defensively.

  I will also consider deleting any responses to Nathan’s comment that escalate conflict without being constructive.

• 3 xJane // Nov 14, 2008 at 9:32 am

  Nathan, there were plenty of protests before the election and plenty of money. The fact that the No on Prop 8 group managed to raise as much from its grassroots supporters as the Yes on H8 group raised from churches and church-sponsored groups is a wonderful statement for the efficacy of grassroots protest as well as the fact that many people do not want to live in a theocracy.

  John: I’ve always been confused—do I honk when I support the protestors or when I want to annoy them? My car was silent as I drove by the Yes on H8 protestors each morning on my way to school, but felt like leaning on the horn in anger.

  Fantastic vid, fantastic pics, thank you for being a part of this!

• 4 Mark // Nov 14, 2008 at 10:02 am

  Nervous they should be. I am amazed that Prop 8 received the support that it did. You should be proud of your self for taking an active position on this important proposition.

• 5 John // Nov 14, 2008 at 10:17 am

  xJane, honk for support at any rally–protesters go wild! Prop 8 proponents mostly yelled out “Yes on 8!” or shook their heads as they drove by. Flip off protesters if you want to annoy them–I didn’t see any last night, but drive-by birds are pretty typical at these things.

  And thanks, xJane and Mark, for the thanks.

  One response to part of Nathan’s comment, because I think it’s a mischaracterization that needs to be corrected:

  “On another note, it is interesting that YESers make their voices heard by saying “Yes on 8″ and NOers do the same by saying “Fuck you!” and flashing the bird.”

  While it’s completely understandable to me that a group that’s had a right taken away from them has every right to be angry, this protest was fairly civil, if a bit boisterous during the confrontation. Review the videos and photos for yourselves to get the overall character of the march.

  A friend who went to a protest in Huntington Beach said that one Prop 8 supporter passing by yelled, “You should all be gassed.” How’s that for civil? (I should point out that this was extreme, and in no way characterizes the bulk of supporters of Prop 8 we encountered.)

• 6 Kelly // Nov 14, 2008 at 11:39 am

  Wow. Your perspective is your reality, isnt it NATHAN. I was there last night as a straight married woman.
  YES on 8 people flipped us off and said hateful, horrible things that I am not accustomed to because I have rights, thanks to my moms generation.
  No on 8 people were peaceful and friendly, fighting for what is right. Get over yourself.

• 7 Nathan // Nov 14, 2008 at 12:47 pm

  I feel like a thread-jacker. After this post I will likely resume a lower profile.

  I can only comment on the information provided.

  John said, “though we had plenty of people lean out of their windows and yell ‘Yes on 8!’ as they drove by” as well as mentioning “occasional shouted retorts with drivers waiting for lights to change”. Notice he said “retorts” not “insults”.

  I wasn’t there, so don’t know. In fact, I have not attended any NO rallies. My assertion that YESers are generally more prone to using curse words, gestures, etc. is based in my experience at YES demonstrations where the opposition’s response was something like 2:1 in terms of vulgarity. That is, for every head shake and thumbs down, we got two “fuck yous” with birdies.

  Compare that to events surrounding suppression of free speech and destruction of property by the NOers (destroying, vandalizing, and uprooting signs; marking bumper stickers; marking YES-supporters cars with permanent pens; vandalizing private property and buildings; etc.) Now ask yourself how many college LGBT support centers got spray painted after the Supreme Court decision or during this election.

  My reference to deviant behavior in #1 above is simply rhetorical. Look at the behavior that the NO movement considers appropriate (and heroic) as long as it accomplishes their personal desires: vulgarity and obscenity (sometimes despite the presence of children), vandalism of private property, suppression of free speech, suppression of democracy, and even assault (in one case that I am aware of).

  Kelly: My point is that if you compare the opposition responses to rallies you would likely find the NO side to be, in general, more vulgar and obscene (of course there are exceptions). Last night’s rally is a perfect case in point. John did not mention any ‘fuck you’ birdies, or insults (except one grossly-upsetting reference to gassing—completely deplorable and unacceptable in every way). On the other hand you mention, “YES on 8 people flipped us off and said hateful, horrible things”. I wasn’t there, so what was the ratio of thumbs down or head shakes to getting flipped off or hearing “hateful, horrible things”? What thing did you hear?

  The question is then, what is the relationship between homosexuality and other deviant behavior? My reasoning: if the NO supporters are 1) more inherently sexually explicit (using sexual innuendo in ads, etc), 2) more inherently vulgar and obscene, and 3) more inherently socially subversive, then maybe their (support of) homosexuality is simply a manifestation of these underlying personality traits, which, in a different time and place might have manifested themselves in non-homosexual ways.

• 8 Jonathan // Nov 14, 2008 at 1:28 pm

  Nathan,
  I’m just trying to understand your last paragraph… Are you are trying to draw a correlation between people with deviant /anti-social behavior traits and people who are apt to show up to “NO to prop-8″ support rallys (gay or otherwise)

  …OR between people who have a gay-friendly philosophy and people with deviant /anti-social behavior problems?

  To begin with, I am thinking that there are way to many factors involved to put stock in either correlation. This is a very complex issue, with people of all kinds of worldviews on both sides involved.

  Regardless, I’m thinking the vast majority of readers here are not going to be keen on examining those correlations. By saying what you did, you are in effect calling nearly everyone here a social deviant, which is probably something you don’t want to do if you are in fact looking for people to examine your reasoning. There is probably a much better forum elsewhere for you to get feedback on these ideas.

  Please believe me, though – while your observations may have been legitimate, in reality, it’s a whole lot more complicated than your reasoning assumes.

• 9 John // Nov 14, 2008 at 2:05 pm

  Just a couple of quick responses to Nathan (#7):

  You seem to assume that Prop8 protesters are gay. It seemed to me that the crowd was quite a mix–maybe more like 50/50. I’d like to echo Jonathan’s comment–do your sexual deviance arguments apply not only to gays, but to anyone who is ready to fight for church/state separation at one of these protests?

  I would also like to echo Jonathan’s comments about your overuse of the “deviant” label. I think it means something different to me than it does to you. Your usage seems to be laden with conservative religious morality, rather than any kind of definition to which we could come to a common agreement.

  I get that you think gays are sexually deviant. You’ve made that point again and again. I doubt we can convince you otherwise, despite any evidence we might share. In return, I see the YesOn8 movement as inherently discriminatory and homophobic, so perhaps fair is fair.

  One more note, to address one point that I do agree with you on: the social subversiveness of the gay rights movement. To step back to a broader context: the backlash against the passage of Prop 8 is situated in a long history of societal persecution of gays. Gays have been burned, executed, lynched, imprisoned, lobotomized, institutionalized. Although social acceptance of gays is growing, they are still discriminated against, made fun of, disowned from families, beaten and sometimes lynched solely on the basis of their sexual preference. Some social environments are so oppressive (Mormonism for one) that many become deeply depressed and commit suicide.

  So yes, the movement against homophobia is socially subversive, the same way that the fight for American independence, for the abolition of slavery, for the right of women to vote, and the right of blacks not to be discriminated against were all socially subversive.

• 10 Julie // Nov 14, 2008 at 9:53 pm

  I was there at this protest. Thanks so much for capturing the event with this thoughtful blog and wonderful pictures!

  *Gay, straight. Black, white. Marriage is a civil right.*

• 11 Peaceful Protest and Civil Dialog | Main Street Plaza // Nov 15, 2008 at 2:00 am

  [...] number of our friends here in Outer Blogness have been covering the protests live, such as John R. at the Irvine protest, and many others I gathered up last Sunday in Outer Blogness. Chino has gathered up some more [...]

• 12 xJane // Nov 15, 2008 at 1:13 pm

  On the subject of sexual deviance from a sexual deviant: “Kinky is what other people do.” Once you get beyond missionary-position, you can always find someone who finds a certain kind of sexual activity deviant (oral sex, anyone?). I think deviance is in the eye of the beholder.

  And yes, I agree with Nathan that people who think about sex conservatively (lower on the kink-spectrum) are less likely to use words that remind them of sex because they think of sex as dirty. Where as people higher on the kink-spectrum are less likely to think of words as “dirty” simply because they have to do with sex.

  Say it with me: cunt. Cunt cunt cunt, cunt cunt. Fuck! Shit. Ass. I’m completely comfortable with these words (bitch, too!). I have a cunt, which I enjoy (as does my husband—enjoy it, not have it); I fuck; I shit; I have an ass; I am a bitch. I’m completely comfortable with each of these statements.

  Once again, I agree with Nathan (if he made it through that paragraph) that people who are uncomfortable with sex, with words about sex, are uncomfortable with sex that they consider to be “kinky” (or as Nathan puts it, “deviant”). In fact, even some people who are comfortable with sex can be subject to “kinky is what other people do”. There are plenty of sexual kinks that are weird to me. But knowing that someone does them (happily and with consenting adults) does not cause me a problem.

• 13 ebrowm // Nov 15, 2008 at 1:30 pm

  What Xjane said.

• 14 rubyinparadise // Nov 15, 2008 at 5:44 pm

  I was at a prop 8 protest today in Irvine. It was very, very positive and most of the people driving by were showing their support by honking, waving, cheering, and flashing the peace sign at us. There were only two people I saw who were anti-equality. One of them flipped off the entire crowd as he drove by slowly. The other just shook his head and waved a McCain-Palin sticker at us. Neither of these people or their behaviour bothered me in the least. No one got nasty with them in response, either. It’s fine– we just disagree.
  Nathan, I think it’s really obvious that your comments are very one-sided. There were tons of straight people like me at the protest today. You can’t make assumptions or generalizations about people at a NO rally except that it’s pretty safe to assume we all believe in civil rights and equality for all Americans.
  There is nothing deviant about love and marriage, per se. Your insistence upon using the term “deviant behaviour” is deeply offensive, and it makes you look really, really ignorant.

• 15 xJane // Nov 15, 2008 at 6:22 pm

  rubyinparadise: I’m most surprised that the one who had a McCain-Palin sticker handy in the front seat with him so that he could wave it at you!

• 16 rubyinparadise // Nov 16, 2008 at 12:07 am

  xJane, the more i thought about it in hindsight, the funnier it became to me… first, that he had the bumper sticker handy, and second that it was in his hand and not… well, on his bumper.

• 17 xJane // Nov 16, 2008 at 7:14 am

  rubyinparadise: right? Who drives around with bumper stickers in their front seat? …besides him.

  Here’s a photo of the Oakland Protest and a photo of why people are doing this (scroll down for the h8-protest)

  And, apparently, keeping gays from having constitutional rights is just religious people exercising their constitutional rights. Way to flip the argument.

• 18 rubyinparadise // Nov 16, 2008 at 7:42 am

  It really boggles the mind. I’m arguing with someone over on the OC Register site about whether or not “virtually equal” is good enough re: domestic partnerships vs. marriage. I thought we fought the “separate but equal” fight already and won…

• 19 rubyinparadise // Nov 16, 2008 at 7:44 am

  P.S., I totally agree with this comment from the Oakland protest article:
  “But displays of anxious masculinity are always so curious. And frightening. ”

  So very true!

• 20 Chino Blanco // Nov 17, 2008 at 2:40 am

  Caught mention of John over at this site:

  http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/11/17/6637

  You rock!

• 21 xJane // Nov 17, 2008 at 3:58 am

  He looks so Mormonly with his bike!

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