43 responses so far ↓

• 1 amelia // Jun 28, 2008 at 4:12 pm

  that makes my heart hurt. in ways i can’t even explain. it would make me cry in the library, and i’ve been trying to avoid that these days.

  whoops. too late. there went a tear.

• 2 Kiri Close // Jun 28, 2008 at 4:32 pm

  i think ur site’s cool. i just discovered it off of exponent’s website. continue 2 keep us all awak!–k.

• 3 catbonny // Jun 28, 2008 at 8:28 pm

  Growing up in the Pentecostal Christian church I was always taught that statistics show that a higher percentage of people who cohabitate before marriage divorce than those who don’t. I’d love to know how much that statictic means with the divorce rate today. I feel like the church just tells young people to get married so then they won’t have to feel bad about having sex. And I have such a problem with this considering the fact about marrying young.

  I think I just don’t have a full understanding of the history of prejudice in the Mormon church, but I feel like I am starting to get the picture.

• 4 memikeyounot // Jun 29, 2008 at 8:38 am

  I am a former ‘mo, nearly 60 years old, and I could share many stories about racism and prejudice in the church. Growing up in the church, my church leaders thought nothing of calling black people “darkies” and worse. I went on a mission to Brazil from 1968-70, and Brazil’s population in those days was over 50% African American; we ran into many interracial couples. It was difficult to baptize them when they found out about the church’s ban on giving the black men “the priesthood” and I knew it was wrong then. Talk about being brainwashed. The “prophet” lifted the ban in 1978, after many hours of “prayer”. (Of course, that doesn’t even address the fact that women can’t hold the priesthood, when most of the women in the church are much better people and stronger leaders than any of the men.
  And of course, that doesn’t begin to cover the time and money the church has given to make sure us uppity gays don’t get the same civil rights as the hetero couples. I still have never figured out how they think a civil marriage between same-sex people can damage marriage in general; it doesn’t make sense at all and to listen to them try and explain it is just silly.
  Sometime when you want a laugh, google “Mark E. Petersen/ masturbation” and look what they taught us.

• 5 Perpetually Amazed // Jun 29, 2008 at 11:32 am

  I apologize ahead of time for all the parentheses.

  I agree with you here, John. I also think the emphasis on race and class is misplaced. I’m especially appalled that this statement hasn’t been edited to reflect what the church must surely recognize is a more nuanced understanding of how successful marriages are grown.

  Having been married twice (both times in the temple), and having suffered intensely over the implications of what it meant to be divorced and Mormon (and possibly unavailable for a second sealing), I admit I didn’t think about these other things (race and class) at all. All I cared about was that I would have a “forever family.”

  Watching my own children get married (as well as observing other marriages through the years), perhaps the idea of ‘intellectual compatibility’ is worth having a look at. My husband and I have had to learn to negotiate our different approaches to money and what constitutes “the necessities.” He was raised on a Texas farm by poverty-stricken corn, cotton, and dairy farmers and didn’t have a phone until he was a senior in high school. I’ve forgotten when the indoor plumbing went in….

  I, on the other hand, was an only child whose parents’ favorite saying was “It only costs a little more to go first class.” I was a princess; he was hopelessly mired in the “rightness” of frugality.

  We suffered a great deal over the years from each other’s clueless insensitivities, and after 26 years we’ve managed to find a middle ground where we don’t want to kill each other. But if we hadn’t both loved learning–if we hadn’t been able to tolerate each others’ pursuit of diverse educational goals (including vocational), weren’t invested in higher education for ourselves and our children–we’d have been doomed.

  Doomed, I say!!!!

  

• 6 Ebonmuse // Jun 29, 2008 at 5:49 pm

  The mind boggles. Clearly, the Mormons have a very long way left to go before they shed the institutionalized racism that’s pervaded their church for most of its history.

• 7 xJane // Jun 30, 2008 at 6:43 am

  This is a bit of an aside to this post, but I was at the FSAE-West this wknd (and despite the participation of China, Japan, and a few South American countries, it was not a bastion of multiculturalism), and BYU had its own team (and accompanying Missionaries). One at least had some minor success when a girl in the break room agreed to take a copy of the BoM (my husband turned to me and said, “Beware of overly friendly people!!!”), but when they gave me a ride back to the track, I admitted that I “Hang out with a bunch of people who are ex-Mormons.” They were very interested in why they (you…?) were “ex-”. My response was that you, John, had kids: when you had a daughter and realized that she was not going to be given the same respect as your son, you realized the inherent misogyny in the Church & left. (This is obviously an over simplification, and I apologize for that.) I didn’t bring up racism, more because it doesn’t come up here at MoF (as it relates to Mormonism) that often.

  They didn’t really have much of a response to that outside of “women are respected members of the family”, which I heard as “women should be content with their lot”. By that time, thankfully for all involved, I’m sure, we got to where I had to get off.

• 8 Lessie // Jun 30, 2008 at 9:28 am

  Good grief. I had hoped that stuff was gone from the hand book. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised, though. When I was till at BYU-I my freshman year, there was a forum about interracial marriage and it’s problems. I didn’t attend, but I found it troubling, especially since my “brown” (as she called herself) roommate was engaged to a white local. I had seen them and knew there was nothing wrong with their relationship. I didn’t know why anyone felt the need to mess with such a personal decision.

• 9 chandelle // Jul 2, 2008 at 5:37 pm

  on a (somewhat) lighter note, i have a short post about this issue here:

  http://onthespiral.blogspot.com/2008/06/silly-marital-conversation-21478.html

• 10 Eric // Jul 3, 2008 at 11:01 am

  “…and of somewhat the same economic and social and educational background…”

  This must be disappointing for all the Jane Austen fans in Mormondom eh?

• 11 Chris // Aug 3, 2008 at 3:43 pm

  Maybe I am reading the statement wrong, but I do believe that the statement says that the leaders “Recommend” that people don’t marry outside their race and with people that have different backgrounds. It is not saying that they will condemn you if you decide to marry someone with a different race, but I believe they “recommend” it because if you are of the same race, and in this case probably a different cultural lifestyle, you will have one less thing to find difficulties in a marriage. I can see where they are coming from. They are trying to help people to possibly, not always, be happier in a marriage.
  Another way to look at it is like this. I recommend that you don’t smoke cigarettes or do . I am recommending that you don’t do them because I would rather you have better health and because you will be happier and save money. I am not condemning you or saying that you don’t have the option to do them, but I recommend that you don’t.
  We always have the choice to do what we want because we have our own agency, but some people care to help others. I know many people in the LDS church that are married to others of a different race, and they are doing fine. I also know, however, that they do have difficulties in their marriage because of their different backgrounds. But they are always welcome to be in the church.
  Sorry if this has been a little different view on the statement of the LDS Church.

• 12 John // Aug 3, 2008 at 9:14 pm

  Chris, you need to choose your analogies much more carefully. You trod on dangerous ground when you compare recommendations against interracial marriage and against smoking. But maybe you prove my point that there is an underlying racisim in so doing.

  And you haven’t addressed the main argument of my little post, which is, why *race*, when other factors (often encouraged by the church culture, like marrying young) put marriage at higher risk than race?

• 13 Chris // Aug 4, 2008 at 8:35 pm

  John, the point in my analogy was not to compare interracial marriage to smoking, but was a analogy as to how recommendations work.
  Now to address the main argument. In this talk, or quote that you put before everyone to see, interracial marriage is recommended against “generally.” You mentioned that race is mentioned as putting marriage at higher risk than other factors, such as marrying young. First, in the quote given above, other factors are mentioned.
  Same racial background generally, and of somewhat the same Economic and Social and Educational Background (some of those are not an absolute necessity, but preferred), and above all, the same religious background, without question”
  The last thing that is mention in this quote as the most important is to marry someone with the same religious background. Race is just among the factors. Second, you never mentioned the many other talks that were given about marriage that did not mention race, but other things such as not viewing ography, or abuse of any kind. And finally, the church leaders, from my understanding, have never come out and said, “Get Married Young.” This a fault on the members part. As you know, premarital is in the church because of many reasons. The church leaders encourage young men and women to search for an eternal companion as soon as they have found the right person for them. They have never said to get married at the age of 18 or 25. There are rumors of a speaker saying that young people will be a menace to society if they do not get married by the age of 25, however, I have not to this day found that quote in writing and I have certainly not found that in any of the council given by a Prophet or a Twelve Apostle. The problem is that many of the members of the church, unfortunately, take what a person says and change it into something that was not intended by the speaker. This is what has happened in this case. Like I said before, the author of the above quote recommended that people marry within the same race, ethnic and social background, economic and educational background, because generally those are some of the complications that occur frequently in marriage. Did he put race before anything else, only in words, not in meaning. He said that religious backgrounds are the most important. As a formal member, you know why that is.
  I know that there is nothing that I can say that will make you change your perspective on this subject, but as a twenty three year old young I am not ready to get married, and no one is forcing me. I have dated many people of different races and no one has told me to not marry them. I can see why people think we are taught to marry young, but the truth of it is, people in the church are getting married young by personal choice. And unfortunately it is not for the right reason. People are imperfect, and I am not going to pretend that we are perfect, but we are trying.

• 14 Chris // Aug 5, 2008 at 5:24 am

  For some reason there are words missing from my post above. I am unsure why they just disapeared, but if there is a spot that is not completely understandable you can understand why now.

• 15 xJane // Aug 5, 2008 at 9:25 am

  so, Chris, in your experience, you have not experienced racism within the LDS church? I’m a (mostly) neutral bystander and know very little about LDS. This quote does seem to be a pretty glaring endorsement of racism; especially since class is very often wrapped up in race. What have been your experiences within the church regarding the teachings about race?

• 16 Elaine // Aug 5, 2008 at 9:32 am

  The problem here is, Chris, is that the Church is, once again, sticking its nose into people’s personal lives, where it does not belong.

  I’m sure most people are aware of the problems, if there are any, associated with intercultural or interracial or intersocioeconomic marriages. I’m not really all that sure that there are as many problems associated with these relationships as alarmists try to indicate, and where there are such problems, I suspect that they are not as all-encompassing as we are led to believe by institutions such as the church.

  But even if those problems are as advertised, it isn’t any of the church’s business to “advise” people on them. A church’s – any church’s – jurisdiction is to serve the spiritual needs of its adherents, not to tell them who they should or shouldn’t marry. Its duty in regards to marriage is to do as much as possible to minimize the problems, not to say “you shouldn’t do this or you’re going to have problems”.

  Another problem I think you’re having, Chris, is a problem that many Mormons have: you are assuming that your experience is everyone’s experience. While I am glad that you do not seem to be pressured to marry, I can assure you that there are many cases in which individuals are pressured, either directly or indirectly, to marry in the church, to go on missions, to get a temple recommend, and do many other things the church approves of and not to do things the church does not approve of.

  I apologize, John, if I’ve stepped over the line in this reply, but these are things I feel very strongly about.

• 17 wren // Aug 5, 2008 at 11:44 am

  The differences people of different backgrounds face are not so much within the marriage but by some in society. The way to combat that is to thumb one’s nose at intolerance and marry who you love anyway. Discrimination and intolerance are eroded the more people stand up to them.

  As a side note, I would dispute Elaine’s comment that it is not the business of the church. The bible and book of Mormon are full of spiritual leaders telling adherents exactly what they should be doing in their personal lives. That’s pretty much the point of those books – God is watching you at all times so you need to always stand in holy places. To do that we’re going to tell you whom to marry, what to eat and drink, who to hang out with, your role in marriage, etc.

  If people are looking to keep their personal life personal, being in a scripture based church is probably not the way to do it.

• 18 xJane // Aug 5, 2008 at 12:24 pm

  I have to side with wren on this one, Elaine: if the church isn’t supposed to be to tell them what to do in their private moments, then most religions need a news flash. I rarely see them doing much else.

  Although I’m with you, Elaine about Chris’ experience filter. Chris: I hope you take this as an invitation to share with us your experience of religion; each of our experiences has led us out religion, so you will bring a different voice to the table. We also make broad-sweeping statements based mainly upon our own experience (to quote me above, “I rarely see [religions] doing much else [than meddling]“). Please call us on it as we will do the same for you.

  wren said, “The way to combat that is to thumb one’s nose at intolerance and marry who you love anyway. Discrimination and intolerance are eroded the more people stand up to them.” Amen, wren!

• 19 Chris // Aug 5, 2008 at 1:15 pm

  I appreciate all of your comments concerning my reply. In my post, i am never intending to do what many call “bible bashing,” or “scripture bashing.” I do understand that my experience is not everyone’s experience in the church, and I am thankful for that. I grew up in a home, whose parents are completely inactive members of the church and my only brother is completely against it. But they have always let me believe what I wanted to and I am thankful for that.
  It is sad to say that in many cases, yes, there are a lot of people that a forced into going on a mission and doing this and that in the church. I feel sorry for them. And I see where that causes a large problem for people outside and in many cases inside the church. However, the problem here, once again, is that there are a lot of people taking the council of the leaders of the church the wrong way. They are putting their own ideas into it. This has happened in every church from the beginning of time. It happened in Christ time with people making the Sabbath Day a day that was almost impossible to live on. From my own experience, I see a group of men, namely the Prophet and Twelve Apostles trying to help people. I really do believe that they love their members of the church, and especially those outside the church. Just listen to any of President Hinckely’s talks and it is obvious. And in the end if I for some reason this belief that I have grown to love is completely wrong, then at least I know that I tried to live the best life I could. I tried to love everyone I could, and helped everyone I could. There are many inside the church and outside the church that do not have those intentions, but the council that is taught is council that is uplifting and although it may seem at time wrong or racist or whatever, I truly believe that the intentions of those that teach and preach in the church are for the good. And in the end, I hope God sees me for the person that I want to be, and that is a person that wants everything that he wants, and someone that is willing to give up everything for what he wants. I want God to never have to doubt that I want to be with him. And he will be able to see that through my faith and diligence here, if the church is wrong than at least he will know that whatever is right, I am willing to do it.
  I know that this quote seems racist, I can see why many think that. However, I, from my experience only, have never seen or heard from any of the top leaders of the church, the only ones that have divine intervention directly with God, that I absolutely cannot marry someone of a different race. I have many friends married to others of different races, in fact I counted and there are more married outside their own race than within. They are happy. Thank you all for listening to my personal view on this.

• 20 Chris // Aug 5, 2008 at 1:21 pm

  Oh, and xJane, I agree with you. People should marry who they love because if they truly love each other, they will be able to get through any of the hardships that come to them.

• 21 John // Aug 5, 2008 at 1:34 pm

  Chris, I appreciate you hanging in there while expressing an unpopular opinion on this site. And kudos to all of you (esp. you MoF regulars!) for keeping the conversation civil.

  We agree on one thing–that church members and leaders are generally well-intentioned, from their own perspective. I think we definitely disagree on whether those intentions result in moral teachings, actions, and outcomes. Anyhow, arguing intentions and personal experience is productive on some level, in that it can help us to empathize with one another, but it doesn’t help us understand whether or not the basic teaching is inherently right or wrong.

  I think it’s important to understand the full context of this teaching. It comes from a manual from an institution that carefully vets every sentence that makes it into each official publication through a correlation committee that includes Apostles and other general authorities. It comes from a church that denied full participation (and associated saving rites and ordinances) solely on the basis of race, and it has refused to confront or apologize for this racist past. When placed into this greater context, the above teaching is an echo of this larger discriminatory monster. All of these teachings and policies were upheld by well-intentioned leaders and followers. This did not make those any less racist or discriminatory.

• 22 Chris // Aug 5, 2008 at 1:44 pm

  Once again John, I can see what your concerns are. Quite frankly I am happy for your concerns because you seem to be a person that wants people to be happy overall. I wish there were more people like that. Yes, there have been reasons for people to think the church is racist in the past. I have read every anti-Mormon thing I could find so far in trying to make my decision as to whether I should stay in the church or not. But I have also found the explanations by leaders to see if the anti-Mormon literature was correct and in every case thus far I have found explanations for all of those problems in the past that help me to feel at peace as to why things happened the way they did.
  I do love religion, and I have studied many other religions, probably not in the depth that you have John. After studying and researching not only the Mormon church and others, I have found that I feel more at peace here then anywhere else. You did not feel the same, and that is okay. That is your decision, that is the beauty of freedom.

• 23 wren // Aug 5, 2008 at 3:23 pm

  Chris, I absolutely see your point of view. At one time it was my own. I did the whole thing of analyzing anti and going back to the church’s material and felt at peace about it.

  The dilemma is that the final word with the church is always, “Thus sayeth the Lord.” Everything has been handled the way it was handled because it was the will of the Lord or God. Why would a black male get the priesthood from Joseph Smith only to have Brigham stop such a practice? God’s will. Why would it be granted again? God’s will.

  When “God’s will” contradicts what humans understand as good and ethical, we should give pause and really think about it. Discrimination based on skin color may be less harmful than, say, a man who kills his family has says it was God’s will. It’s still hateful and it’s still indefensible. But then, that’s God’s way if scriptures are to be believed.

  How convenient that any argument can be dismissed with the notion things are as God wants them.

  The church is fond of saying God is not the author of confusion. Perhaps s/he isn’t. Humans, on the other hand, have proven themselves to be otherwise. Who’s zoomin’ who?

• 24 Chris // Aug 5, 2008 at 6:35 pm

  Hey Wren and everyone else, I appreciate the chance to go back and forth with this subject. This will be my last post on this sight. If any of your are interested in emailing me any other comments or anything else feel free. My email address is kentmin_4321@hotmail.com. I guess we will never really know until the end what is really right and really wrong. Although we never met in person I appreciate the chance I had to meet you verbally. I hope the best for all of you in your life and in all your dreams. God bless you and your families.

  Your friend
  Chris

• 25 xJane // Aug 5, 2008 at 9:10 pm

  Chris said, “in the end, I hope God sees me for the person that I want to be” I feel like a lot of religious feel that way yet when they look outside themselves, they try to judge. Somewhere I ran across the saying that we judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their actions. I know I’m guilty of this, I just think he put his finger on a very human instinct.

  Wren: That was one of my major problems with religion, too. The lack of a good answer besides “God said so”. I’m reminded of George Carlin’s Catholic church skit (“I used to be Irish Catholic now I’m an atheist. You know, you grow…”) where his questions were often confronted with the answer, “Well, it’s a mystery…” I got that answer so many times from so many “authorities” that by the time I was in junior high I was fairly certain that the adults didn’t know what they believed in!

• 26 wren // Aug 6, 2008 at 12:17 am

  “we judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their actions”

  I’ve not heard that before. Something I should commit to memory.

  My questions started in jr. high during Lutheran confirmation classes. My pastor often answered gave me the mystery answer. That and this gem: Some things we won’t know until we die.

  Well shite, that’s a bit late!

• 27 Elaine // Aug 6, 2008 at 7:37 am

  Well, see? That’s why I never made a really good “nice little Mormon girl”…I have this aversion to people I don’t even know telling me what is and is not appropriate for me to do.

  I don’t know. I guess part of it is that I was raised to “question authority”…it’s the unofficial family motto, passed down to me from my father, who got it from his father. Bunch of Germans…who’d've thunk it?

  And another part of it is that I was raised, before the whole Mormon thing ever happened, to believe that churches are there, as I said in my earlier post, to take care of your spiritual needs, not to micromanage your everyday life. Naturally, I wasn’t aware of that unfortunate tendency among the Mormons when I joined up. If I had known (that and some other things), I never would have agreed to be baptized.

• 28 xJane // Aug 6, 2008 at 8:55 am

  “that’s a bit late!” no kidding :-p

  Elaine: I think your family’s attitude (question authority & religions are for your spiritual needs) is very pragmatic. I wish more people lived by those mottos.

• 29 synnove // Aug 24, 2008 at 9:45 am

  Hi
  I am certain the Church never meant it as some seem to think here. It is just a general statement and the person could have maybe chosen different words, but people are different. I am absolutely sure there is no racism involved. Of course people choose themselves, the mayor thing is interfaith marriages may cause problems, but I know a few friends that have no problems with it at all, then there is many who do get problems. So for a general advise what else could they give. As for marrying active people in church, it does not matter, but demands a flexible nature which not all ..even church members have…but there are mare and more marrying across nations and race barriers that used to be in the past. (Especially with in-laws). Still I think a little more updated phrasing would be good, to get the real meaning more accurate. Today people are able to cope with language barriers, cultural differences and different traditions much better than a few decades ago, and differences are more seen as they should be as an interesting challenge and an enrichment to the relationship.

• 30 John White // Aug 26, 2008 at 3:58 pm

  synnove:
  I don’t know what else the church could mean by “We recommend that people marry those who are of the same racial background generally,” other than exactly what it says.

  You’re suggesting the Prophet didn’t mean what he said? What different words do you think the Prophet “could have maybe” chosen?

  I’m a child of interracial marriage, so the major thing FOR ME is that the church instructs every young man that it’s a problem.

• 31 Wren // Sep 30, 2008 at 8:54 pm

  I’m a Mormon convert two years past. I believe in Christ but now I am so confused about it all.

  Second, I’m not white, and I have a white girlfriend and it’s been hurting me a lot. I was strongly against interracial relationships but I love this girl and she loves me.

  I sometimes fringe in trauma because of this whole race issue. I know, however, that a kingdom divided can’t stand.

  I see some white people are racist, some are not.
  That prophet recommends not to have interracial marriage, but yet at Church I see intermarriage couples.

  I’ve had white friends, black friends, Hispanic friends, and mixed friends.

  When I see a black guy with a white girl I feel it’s wrong, and when I see a white guy with a black girl, I don’t feel it’s wrong.

  There are so many contradictions.

  This is too much for me.

  But lastly, getting into relationships outside of Mormon faith was the most difficult for me.

  Wren

• 32 JohnW // Oct 1, 2008 at 1:20 pm

  No joke, Wren? That’s a tough place to be in. Talked to your Bishop?

• 33 Ryan // Oct 8, 2008 at 6:52 pm

  I am American and I married someone from another country. What I get out of what he said is to marry someone who is LIKE you so that the marriage would have the chances of being better off. Ohh yeah, there are lots of differences between us which wouldn’t be there if we were of a simular upbringing, culture, and economic background.
  When I read this I don’t feel any racism in his coments, just advice to poeple in having a better chance in marriage if they marry someone more like themselves.

• 34 John White // Oct 8, 2008 at 11:57 pm

  Ryan, I just want to be clear. You don’t feel any racism in a directive to marry someone of generally the same racial background?

• 35 Ron Cook // Jan 18, 2009 at 6:09 pm

  Say what one likes, my experance is that saints are color blind. I have been raised in the south were there are black churchs and white churchs. Race is a big issue there. My son went on a mission to Georgia and that is what he saw. He attended a black church a couple of times and he and his companion were there only white boys there. they stuck out like soar thumbs.

  I have a sister that adopted 5 black kids. One is named after me and I love them as flesh and blood relations. There is a boy that passes the sacrament that is black. Great kid. I knew a bishop that was black in SlC Utah. Great guy.

  Notice that I said saints are color blind. I could give examples of mormons that are racists. There are both in the church. Its like Sunday Christians and those that are saved. As for me, I am trying to be a saint and I dont care what color anyone is. It does matter what they do and how they live that makes the difference.

• 36 Steve-O // Apr 9, 2009 at 9:49 pm

  I know this is an old post that I’ve stumbled on…

  John, a lot of people probably would look at that statement and intuitively see it as racist. We’ve all been conditioned to think that way. I’ll admit that my gut reaction said it was racist. But is it, really?

  Racism is a powerful accusation & should be backed up with a clear, unambiguous explanation. There’s no implication of any racial hierarchy in that statement. Nor is “racial purity” held up as a goal.

  Frankly, I’m tired of smug assholes who think that accusing others of racism inoculates them against charges of racism. What say you?

  Also, it’ s true that divorce rates decline slightly with age. But the bullshit PC zeitgeist already tells kids to delay marriage. That’s why fertility rates are plummeting in developed countries.

  So the conventional wisdom of free society isn’t always so wise. Which is also why I give Mormons the benefit of the doubt on the race thing.

• 37 John // Apr 10, 2009 at 12:02 am

  Context, Steve-O: there is no debate that in 1977, the LDS Church discriminated according to race. Anyone with African ancestry could not get married in the temple or reach the highest levels of heaven and black men could not serve in most leadership positions or perform the simple ritual tasks that just about any non-black 12-year-old boy could.

  This is exactly why I do not give the Mormons the benefit of doubt.

  What say I? I don’t claim to be inoculated against charges of racism (I am entirely capable of discriminating, which is why I reflect and examine my own attitudes), but I probably am a smug asshole.

• 38 JohnW // Apr 10, 2009 at 12:13 am

  Wow, Steve-O. I think it’s problematic that you define racism only as racial hierarchies or statements of purity. I think it’s completely possible to be racist by enforcing segregation.

  In addition, I think that both hierarchy and purity ARE being implied. Separation implies inequality. And not having mixed race marriages is pretty much the definition of racial purity, isn’t it? Or am I missing something there.

  > the bullshit PC zeitgeist already tells
  > kids to delay marriage. That’s why
  > fertility rates are plummeting in
  > developed countries.

  I’m reading here that you imply that both delaying marriage and lowered fertility rates are a bad thing. But I’m not clear why either of them are bad.

  > Which is also why I give Mormons
  > the benefit of the doubt on the race thing.

  Benefit of the doubt that they might not have been racist? Or that they were racist but might not have been wrong?

• 39 InCentralMD // Jul 8, 2009 at 7:12 am

  Low divorce rates for young woman (girls?) if they “marry” an old man. Justifying pedophilia, these people are creepy…

• 40 Traylor // Nov 1, 2009 at 2:19 am

  Despite all the negative statements against the Church on this selfishness-promoting blog, you will all remember that I on this day I told you that on Judgment Day a lot of faithful Mormons will have on their minds when looking at you the following: “I told you so.“

• 41 John White // Nov 4, 2009 at 4:43 pm

  Traylor (#40)
  That must be that Christ-like love I’ve been hearing about.

• 42 Commentator // Nov 29, 2009 at 8:48 pm

  Traylor is a little bit of a nut. In fact I’m certain that it is fake, because it is non-sensical.

  Regardless, his extreme point on one side isn’t that much farther from the center than the extremists on the other side.

  If you are unwilling to acknowledge the additional difficulties introduced by interracial marriages, then you are simply refusing to acknowledge the facts.

  In addition, if you choose to take a few sentences out of context, then that is your loss as you explore other people, their religions and philosophies.

• 43 John White // Nov 29, 2009 at 9:28 pm

  Commentator, the issue isn’t whether inter-racial marriage might be more difficult. It’s whether it’s O.K. to provide a guidance to marry those “of the same racial background generally.”

  And I’m totally open to hearing about the context of the statement.

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