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	<title>Comments on: at what point does it become too much?</title>
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	<link>http://www.mindonfire.com/2008/04/08/at-what-point-does-it-become-too-much/</link>
	<description>Religion, SF, and Other Speculative Fictions.</description>
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		<title>By: the stupid things religion comes up with! &#124; Mind on Fire</title>
		<link>http://www.mindonfire.com/2008/04/08/at-what-point-does-it-become-too-much/comment-page-1/#comment-21344</link>
		<dc:creator>the stupid things religion comes up with! &#124; Mind on Fire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 00:43:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1044#comment-21344</guid>
		<description>[...] myself and having many friends and relatives who are still there. But sometimes, there are just no words to describe the stupid depths to which religion drives [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] myself and having many friends and relatives who are still there. But sometimes, there are just no words to describe the stupid depths to which religion drives [...]</p>
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		<title>By: xJane</title>
		<link>http://www.mindonfire.com/2008/04/08/at-what-point-does-it-become-too-much/comment-page-1/#comment-21265</link>
		<dc:creator>xJane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2008 20:49:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1044#comment-21265</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ktvb.com/news/crime/stories/ktvbn-oct0208-homicide_faith_healing.d4257468.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Some parents are being charged with homicide for relying on prayer&lt;/a&gt;—it&#039;ll be interesting to see how this plays out. If someone wants to die for their beliefs, that&#039;s one thing. Killing for them (even negligently) is completely different. If this suit is successful, maybe it will have implications for this war we&#039;ve gotten ourselves into—since a startling number of politicians believe that they&#039;re doing God&#039;s work by attacking wrong-religion countries. &lt;a href=&quot;http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2008/10/parents-charged-with-homicide-for.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;via.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.ktvb.com/news/crime/stories/ktvbn-oct0208-homicide_faith_healing.d4257468.html" rel="nofollow">Some parents are being charged with homicide for relying on prayer</a>—it&#8217;ll be interesting to see how this plays out. If someone wants to die for their beliefs, that&#8217;s one thing. Killing for them (even negligently) is completely different. If this suit is successful, maybe it will have implications for this war we&#8217;ve gotten ourselves into—since a startling number of politicians believe that they&#8217;re doing God&#8217;s work by attacking wrong-religion countries. <a href="http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2008/10/parents-charged-with-homicide-for.html" rel="nofollow">via.</a></p>
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		<title>By: xJane</title>
		<link>http://www.mindonfire.com/2008/04/08/at-what-point-does-it-become-too-much/comment-page-1/#comment-17791</link>
		<dc:creator>xJane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 14:42:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1044#comment-17791</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sure by now everyone&#039;s heard of the recent honor killing in Iraq, but &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/11/iraq.humanrights&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here is the absolutely chilling interview with the murderer/father&lt;/a&gt;. And I really do have to lump it in with this (and with the FLDS raid...read the end with the victim&#039;s mother).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sure by now everyone&#8217;s heard of the recent honor killing in Iraq, but <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/11/iraq.humanrights" rel="nofollow">here is the absolutely chilling interview with the murderer/father</a>. And I really do have to lump it in with this (and with the FLDS raid&#8230;read the end with the victim&#8217;s mother).</p>
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		<title>By: xJane</title>
		<link>http://www.mindonfire.com/2008/04/08/at-what-point-does-it-become-too-much/comment-page-1/#comment-17697</link>
		<dc:creator>xJane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 May 2008 22:36:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1044#comment-17697</guid>
		<description>there&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://religiondispatches.org/Gui/Content.aspx?Page=BL&amp;Id=205&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a &lt;i&gt;great&lt;/i&gt; postscript to this over at Religion Dispatches&lt;/a&gt;: namely, why have these parents, who put trust in their deity over trust in the medical profession, not similarly just their deity over the legal profession? This may be the very first instance where lawyers are &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; considered tools of satan!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>there&#8217;s <a href="http://religiondispatches.org/Gui/Content.aspx?Page=BL&#038;Id=205" rel="nofollow">a <i>great</i> postscript to this over at Religion Dispatches</a>: namely, why have these parents, who put trust in their deity over trust in the medical profession, not similarly just their deity over the legal profession? This may be the very first instance where lawyers are <i>not</i> considered tools of satan!</p>
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		<title>By: xJane</title>
		<link>http://www.mindonfire.com/2008/04/08/at-what-point-does-it-become-too-much/comment-page-1/#comment-17682</link>
		<dc:creator>xJane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 02:01:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1044#comment-17682</guid>
		<description>(&lt;a href=&quot;http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com/2008/04/praying-parents-praiseworthy.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;cross posted&lt;/a&gt;)

James: abuse in religion comes in many forms. This particular case ended up being physically manifested (death is pretty physical, although it may also be considered both emotional and spiritual). The fact that this is an extreme example does not absolve religion of the ongoing emotional &amp; spiritual abuse that is the norm in all religions. I will agree with you that it is not &lt;i&gt;inherent&lt;/i&gt; in all religions, but the way that religion is practiced is often abusive.

Prayer can have its place. Its effects on the brain are very well documented. However, prayer advised by religion can often be stupid at best, deadly in this case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(<a href="http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com/2008/04/praying-parents-praiseworthy.html" rel="nofollow">cross posted</a>)</p>
<p>James: abuse in religion comes in many forms. This particular case ended up being physically manifested (death is pretty physical, although it may also be considered both emotional and spiritual). The fact that this is an extreme example does not absolve religion of the ongoing emotional &#038; spiritual abuse that is the norm in all religions. I will agree with you that it is not <i>inherent</i> in all religions, but the way that religion is practiced is often abusive.</p>
<p>Prayer can have its place. Its effects on the brain are very well documented. However, prayer advised by religion can often be stupid at best, deadly in this case.</p>
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		<title>By: James McGrath</title>
		<link>http://www.mindonfire.com/2008/04/08/at-what-point-does-it-become-too-much/comment-page-1/#comment-17680</link>
		<dc:creator>James McGrath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 13:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1044#comment-17680</guid>
		<description>I agree that there are abusive forms of religion, but I think it is important to not generalize too sweepingly. I posted about this subject &lt;a href=&quot;http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com/2008/04/praying-parents-praiseworthy.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;on my blog&lt;/a&gt;, and I do hope you&#039;ll pay a visit, since I spend a lot of time talking about science fiction as well as religion, too!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that there are abusive forms of religion, but I think it is important to not generalize too sweepingly. I posted about this subject <a href="http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com/2008/04/praying-parents-praiseworthy.html" rel="nofollow">on my blog</a>, and I do hope you&#8217;ll pay a visit, since I spend a lot of time talking about science fiction as well as religion, too!</p>
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		<title>By: Meg</title>
		<link>http://www.mindonfire.com/2008/04/08/at-what-point-does-it-become-too-much/comment-page-1/#comment-16367</link>
		<dc:creator>Meg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:53:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1044#comment-16367</guid>
		<description>Hear, hear. It baffles me that many forms of child abuse &amp; neglect are labeled &quot;OK&quot; by society as long as they hide behind the facade of religion. Just a small step sideways and this would have caused outrage. What if the parents were members of one of the obscure churches that worships pot, instead of Christian?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hear, hear. It baffles me that many forms of child abuse &amp; neglect are labeled &#8220;OK&#8221; by society as long as they hide behind the facade of religion. Just a small step sideways and this would have caused outrage. What if the parents were members of one of the obscure churches that worships pot, instead of Christian?</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.mindonfire.com/2008/04/08/at-what-point-does-it-become-too-much/comment-page-1/#comment-16237</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:17:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1044#comment-16237</guid>
		<description>I think we have to be careful, though, not to throw all theists into the same bin.  The vast majority of God-fearing parents would&#039;ve hedged their bets, praying and also exercising their faith in modern medical science by getting their kid to a doctor at the first signs of serious illness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we have to be careful, though, not to throw all theists into the same bin.  The vast majority of God-fearing parents would&#8217;ve hedged their bets, praying and also exercising their faith in modern medical science by getting their kid to a doctor at the first signs of serious illness.</p>
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		<title>By: xJane</title>
		<link>http://www.mindonfire.com/2008/04/08/at-what-point-does-it-become-too-much/comment-page-1/#comment-16228</link>
		<dc:creator>xJane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 14:05:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1044#comment-16228</guid>
		<description>I also find it interesting following on the heels of your post on cults: if they were involved in a cult, they would be given some leeway for being duped, but everyone would still understand &lt;em&gt;that they were duped&lt;/em&gt;. The only difference I can see between belief in God and belief that you&#039;re Napoleon is that the first is a common ailment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also find it interesting following on the heels of your post on cults: if they were involved in a cult, they would be given some leeway for being duped, but everyone would still understand <em>that they were duped</em>. The only difference I can see between belief in God and belief that you&#8217;re Napoleon is that the first is a common ailment.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.mindonfire.com/2008/04/08/at-what-point-does-it-become-too-much/comment-page-1/#comment-16127</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 18:36:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mindonfire.com/?p=1044#comment-16127</guid>
		<description>Thanks for capturing these topics, xJane.  They&#039;ve been much on my mind.  I think that you&#039;ve made it all the more ironic by including the death of a child by faith healing inspired neglect and Davis&#039; charge that merely the awareness of atheism as an option is dangerous to our children.  Belief killed little &lt;a href=&quot;http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jB9FTepg826w9MnY6QGqu7sv0G5QD8VOGQLG0&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ava Worthington&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23832053/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Kara Neumann&lt;/a&gt;.

Kara&#039;s death has especially bothered me.  A couple of ironic quotes from the police chief:

Speaking about Kara&#039;s siblings, who have been removed by the state from their home:

&lt;i&gt;“There is no physical evidence of abuse or neglect”&lt;/i&gt;

and about the possibility of pressing charges:

&lt;i&gt;“There is no intent. They didn’t want their child to die. They thought what they were doing was the right thing,” he said. “They believed up to the time she stopped breathing she was going to get better. They just thought it was a spiritual attack. They believed if they prayed enough she would get through it.”&lt;/i&gt;

This, to me, is the scary bit.  I want to have some compassion towards these parents, to understand their situation better, but they should not be excused for believing the wrong thing.  The dangers and the insanity of faith-healing should be highlighted and trumpeted from the Internet equivalent of rooftops, not justified and explained away as understandable, forgivable behavior.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for capturing these topics, xJane.  They&#8217;ve been much on my mind.  I think that you&#8217;ve made it all the more ironic by including the death of a child by faith healing inspired neglect and Davis&#8217; charge that merely the awareness of atheism as an option is dangerous to our children.  Belief killed little <a href="http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jB9FTepg826w9MnY6QGqu7sv0G5QD8VOGQLG0" rel="nofollow">Ava Worthington</a> and <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23832053/" rel="nofollow">Kara Neumann</a>.</p>
<p>Kara&#8217;s death has especially bothered me.  A couple of ironic quotes from the police chief:</p>
<p>Speaking about Kara&#8217;s siblings, who have been removed by the state from their home:</p>
<p><i>“There is no physical evidence of abuse or neglect”</i></p>
<p>and about the possibility of pressing charges:</p>
<p><i>“There is no intent. They didn’t want their child to die. They thought what they were doing was the right thing,” he said. “They believed up to the time she stopped breathing she was going to get better. They just thought it was a spiritual attack. They believed if they prayed enough she would get through it.”</i></p>
<p>This, to me, is the scary bit.  I want to have some compassion towards these parents, to understand their situation better, but they should not be excused for believing the wrong thing.  The dangers and the insanity of faith-healing should be highlighted and trumpeted from the Internet equivalent of rooftops, not justified and explained away as understandable, forgivable behavior.</p>
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