And not in the good, Beastie Boys kind of way.
Yesterday, I got to work a little early & decided to surf the ‘net for a bit. So when a coworker walked in, I greeted him, but went back to what I was reading (yes, I found it more interesting than I found him). He said, “I’m going to check Facebook to see how many congratulations I got.” Since I was the only one in the room, this was clearly an invitation to begin a discussion, but I did not bite. Another coworker came in & said, “Congratulations!” and he had his audience. They then began to discuss his courtship of his now-fiance.
The first bit that made me ill was that he went to the Wal-Mart of wedding rings to get a hunk of carbon that he will never know how many people died getting for him (I’m a fan of diamonds, but honestly, crystal has the same shimmer…and so do cubits). But then! Then he went into how he called her father to ask permission, but first he had to ask permission to ask permission. He wanted to know if it was disrespectful to ask permission over the phone.
How ’bout, it’s disrespectful to treat your new better half as if she were chattel? I wish I could wish him well on his new course in life, but my heart’s just not in it. More reasons we should take the religion out of marriage.
7 responses so far ↓
1 Lessie // Dec 20, 2007 at 7:49 am
I think I was a feminist even before I knew it. When hubby and I got engaged, I told him not to ask my dad first. I told him that there was nothing my dad could do to stop him and that the whole permission thing just seemed like a hark back to when women were sold. It kind of hurt my dad’s feelings, but I didn’t want to feel like I didn’t have some autonomy. So I’m still glad I did it that way. I don’t blame you for being disheartened by his procedure. As for diamonds, I was unaware of the diamond trade at the time I got engaged, so I have no idea how fairly my diamond was mined (guess it doesn’t matter since my two year old ran off with it while I was in the shower one day and I haven’t seen it since). It is something I keep in mind for if I ever purchase a future diamond, however.
2 John // Dec 20, 2007 at 8:49 am
Though I was pretty conservative at the time, I didn’t ask Jana for permission to marry Jana (the precedent had been set by another in her family). I didn’t think of myself as a feminist–it just seemed utterly foolish. We were adults, and ‘owned’ ourselves. Plus, no one even thought of Jana asking my family’s permission. It’s a foolish tradition, and I’m glad we broke with it.
xJane, I think the root of this practice has less to do with religion than with the social history of treating women as property. Unfortunately, the conservative elements within Christianity are probably the main protectors of this archaic and sexist custom, at least in this country.
Regarding diamonds: Jana and I have the exact same bands, based on a French posey ring. (Also, people ridiculed us for deciding to get engagement bands for each of us.) No diamonds, though this has more to do with our poverty at the time than any knowledge of the diamond trade.
3 amelia // Dec 20, 2007 at 9:25 am
I’ve been saying for years that I don’t want a diamond engagement/wedding ring. The thing that always surprises me is the conviction with which other women tell me I’m wrong–that in fact I *do* want a diamond. That when it comes time, I’ll know my true mind. Apparently when it comes right down to it, I won’t be able to resist a diamond. And given my foolish repression now, I’ll probably insist on some obscenely large 2-carat stone or something…
I’ve also rejected the whole notion of ‘asking permission.’ I don’t want to cause hurt feelings, but I refuse to honor a tradition that began with the idea that a woman was the property first of her father and then of her husband.
But I agree with John–these traditions have little to do with religion, other than that cultural conservatives as a rule tend to want to cling to past traditions. And that their sexism often mimics the sexism of the past. I think the problem of ‘asking permission’ has more to do with failing to examine traditions and where they come from than anything else. and diamonds–well, that’s mostly the product of amazing marketing. If you’re interested in a good explanation of the history of the diamond industry and its marketing, check out Epstein’s material here:
http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/diamond/prologue.htm
he has a full-length book, too, I believe. But this is a pretty good intro.
4 xJane // Dec 21, 2007 at 7:44 am
I was recently given a necklace of crystals which, when the sun catches them, sends rainbows everywhere. While I was enthusing about how awesome it was, someone told me, “that’s why people like diamonds, dear”. And I won’t say that my ring is the most conscious of rings, but I did make a conscious decision about it. I have an engagement ring of a sapphire and two cubits (all grown, not mined) which I rarely wear except to special occasions, and a simple band identical to my husband’s.
Amelia: I think it’s so funny that people love telling other people what they will and will not want in the future. Good thing strangers know us better than we do ourselves, neh?
5 xJane // Jan 7, 2008 at 9:15 am
Incidentally, but unsurprisingly, Bush is very happy to treat his own issue as chattel. In fact, his wife thinks it’s “sweet”.
6 Brian // Jan 23, 2008 at 8:35 am
(Saw this post and had to comment)
I’m of two minds on the issue. Mainly, I think it’s a good thing. This has NOTHING to do with having a daughter…really…why are you looking at me like that?
In full disclosure, I did not ask my future father in law for his blessing in marrying his daughter, though I wish I had. (Mainly, I didn’t because my wife has some family issues and has never cared spit what her parents think.)
I think the tradition (properly modified) has a strong place in our society. Getting married isn’t just about two people. It’s also about two families. Both spouses become part of the other’s family, and, by extension, the two families are drawn closer together by the bond. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to sit and talk about the issue with both sets of parents. It can bring out a lot of expectations and desires that can smooth problems that may arise down the road.
7 xJane // Jan 23, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Brian: to some extent, I agree: DH is now a part of my family & I am now a part of his. But I wasn’t asked my opinion about my sisters’ husbands, or about their children…so I disagree that family is anything you can choose. But: point well taken, thank you
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