11 responses so far ↓

• 1 nee // Jul 10, 2007 at 5:28 am

  These exact things resurface in my mind from time to time. It was even painful in the beginning when I was losing my religion because not only were my beliefs about god, eternity, purpose of life, etc being torn down but I was opting to step away from the whole culture as well.

  What I find delicious is the freedom I have now. I still serve. However, it is directed at my community now. Before it was tied up in other members of the Mormon culture. Mormons are great at service but mostly taking care of their own. I think the work the church does in developing countries is great. However, local projects, at least in my area and others I’m familiar with are just a token one here and there. We had a former bishop who shot it down when approached about working on a multi-faith collaboration Habitat for Humanity house. My experience was the church wanted to be the one in control of everything they were involved with and only relinquished a little bit of that when it came to banding together for political issues. I did not appreciate being handed petition packets in RS to ‘defend marriage’.

  I feel my service makes more of an impact now than it did before. One BIG factor… I have TIME! Incredible wonderful free time! Time to choose how to serve. Time to visit friends who aren’t Mormon. Time to feed my interests. Time to explore spirituality in different places.

  When it occurred to me how much of my freedom I had willingly sacrificed as a Mormon, I noticed the great irony. I thought back to my missionary discussions… Satan’s plan was to take away choice. How awful! But Jesus had a different plan. The church talked about free agency often. However, they strongly discouraged against exercising one’s free agency in any direction but their approved one.

  “A little too ironic… yeah I really do think…”

  I love my freedom now. I love that choosing to do what is “right” is really a choice now and not one made under cultural pressure or perceived threat of punishment. To quote a pastor at Unity I’ve mentioned before, “SIN is Self Inflicted Nonsense.”

• 2 Elaine Frei // Jul 10, 2007 at 6:15 am

  Honestly? I think that the church’s take on free agency is the same as some Americans’ take on the First Amendment: “it’s fine in theory, but you had better not try to actually use it.” Sad, but true.

  Actually, there is very little I miss about the church. Community? After I moved from my first real ward (my first ward doesn’t really count, because we moved from there less than a month after I was baptized), I never felt a part of the community because the ward I lived in the longest was so cliquey. I only ever had one real female friend there, and that ended (of course) as soon as she got married. I did (and still do) have one male friend in that ward, but the church makes it very difficult, I have found, for adults to have real friends of the opposite gender. I think that is unfortunate.

  Certainty? Well, I never could get up and say, without feeling silly, that I “knew” the church was true, because I didn’t. I hoped it was true. I wanted it to be true. But I didn’t know that it was. That was okay for a long time, because I’m fine with gray areas. But it wasn’t a good position from which to attempt to fit in, not in such a certainty-driven institution.

  Morality? I actually never felt like my morality was defined by the church. I was raised with a strong set of values (which didn’t and doesn’t always jibe with the values set forth by the church), and so I never felt a strong connection between the two.

  Service? I don’t ever remember there being many service projects in the ward I lived in for the longest. Sure, the youth did something once in awhile, but I was out of that age group by the time I moved into that ward. There never seemed to be a strong committment to service from the adults in the ward. I did participate in community service activities from time to time, but my ward was not very engaged in the community, to be honest. I think that very much came from the same desire for control that you mentioned, nee.

  As I read back over this post, I really hate that it sounds so negative, but that is my memory of my experience in the church. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that I never really fit in, not in the ward where I lived for so long. I don’t think they approved of me on very many levels at all. Not all their fault, I guess. I never tried that hard to fit in after I realized what the lay of the land was…that they were all about trying to outdo Corridor Mormons in their orthodoxy (an interesting phenomenon, that), that if one hadn’t been a part of the original group that founded the branch that had become that ward one was never really going to be accepted, and that they just didn’t know what to do with an adult woman who wasn’t morbidly embarassed that she wasn’t married.

  The other thing that amazes me as I think back on that experience is that I tried to make it work for as long as I did. It makes me think that I must be either really stubborn or really stupid. But, like I said, for a long time I really wanted it to be true, and I suppose all that time put in was my effort to make it true.

• 3 Miko // Jul 10, 2007 at 9:58 am

  Obviously, this is a different church for me, but there is definitely something to be said for a group of people who meet on a weekly basis. I remember fondly hanging out after Mass with people who I felt accepted me (which was odd, since I really felt that my parents didn’t). Now that I’m not in school, I feel that it takes much more effort that I’m often willing to make to have even those kinds of superficial relationships.

  I’m with Elaine re: morality. The morality I was taught never made much sense to me. It was a very paternal kind of “you will not do this because I say you will not” with no rationale given (which made making choices not explicitly covered very confusing to me). Even the “proofs” of morality given by Christian apologetics made logical leaps that were illogical to me.

  I was never real active in service, but I’m thinking of volunteering at the local animal shelter because an old friend of the family has a friend of the family whose daughter works there & she thinks (the old friend) that we (the daughter & I) would really hit it off…It’s a cause that’s closer to my heart than anything my parents were/are involved in (ProLife Couple of the Year still kind of creeps me out; that and my dad is a Grand Poobah in KofC).

  I also agree with the certainty. My parents were certain & the people around me were certain, but I never was. I always thought something was wrong, that I didn’t get it like everyone else seemed to.

  But that doesn’t stop me, when I’m at church with my family, from wishing that I could get it, that I was still in it (like Cypher with the steak: I wish I’d never taken the red pill). But I think in general, it was a good thing & I like where I am now.

• 4 Mark // Jul 10, 2007 at 2:02 pm

  Sounds to me like you have made a comfortable transition for the most part and have filled most of the voids of what you miss. Service as you know can be fulfilled in so many ways, those ways will come to you as you need them to, in the mean time keep doing what you are doing with your family.

• 5 Chili Pepper // Jul 10, 2007 at 9:23 pm

  Community: When I formally made my departure from Mormonism, I was actively engaged in searching for a replacement community of friends (some no longer LDS, some never LDS). I looked for a new circle of friends with whom I could relate to, could trust, respect, and would likely develop friendships with for life. I think my efforts have turned into many great friendships since then. I have great acquaintances and friends, and I also happened to have met my wonderful wife during my post-Mormon social life.

  …And a replacement religious community? …Although I consider myself to be agnostic and am comfortable as such, I still sometimes enjoy the “congregational vibes” from a few churches. When I think about it more deeply, it’s more about being impressed with the community strength and openness shared in some churches. However, I have recently decided that I’m only interested in churches that celebrate diversity, support gay rights, and reinforce gender equality within their own congregational culture. Something that’s a new realization for myself, and so far I’m only familiar with the United Congregational Church that is progressive like this, although I’m sure there are some more.

  Certainty: Like John R., I’m ok without certainty. I am aware of what’s not true within Mormonism, and for me that’s more than sufficient for being ok without certainty.

  Morality: Similar to Elaine F., church policies and teachings on morality never had any real bearing on my own sense of morality. If anything, my sense of morality seemed to be more innate and personal based on my own thoughts, feelings and conclusions, and had very little to do with my religious upbringing. For example, I never really felt guilty for watching R-rated movies as a Mormon teenager, trying alcohol, discovering myself sexually in relationships,… I also never tormented myself emotionally for masturbation, (unfortunately) unlike so many young men and women who come from Mormon backgrounds. But from an early age on, I had a good sense of what was right and what was wrong, and I believed in the notion—sort of subconsciously—that morality was more a matter of personal understanding and not one set of standards determined by a particular religious institution; I already thought church morality teachings were overly emphasized, unreasonably applied, far from being pragmatic, far from being effective, and most importantly not in line with my own sense of morals. In times of frustration with church morality teachings, I would often think of the goodness of other people who were not religious (or who were religious, but with more flexible belief systems of morality), who actually had many morals similar to my own. I feel very lucky in this regard. I realize that there are many in the church who are not only led to treat the concept of “LDS standards” as the only right way for themselves, but also as the exclusive moral authority for the entire world. That’s their right and prerogative of course,… I’m just saying this belief is entirely incompatible with my own morals and value system, and I’ve actually experienced it to be harmful in many cases.

  Service: I really have been enjoying many indulgences after serving a two-year LDS mission, making it through BYU as a non-believer,… my indulgences all occurring in various degrees while dealing with the blows that come after confronting LDS doctrinal issues head on. I’ve been enjoying complete control of my activities, hobbies, and interests. I think in many ways, it can be easy to say “I deserve it,… I’ve earned the right to take a break from service.” I think there’s a balance though,… I think with this attitude exclusively, it can only wear off over time to become almost vanity. On the other hand, I’ve also realized in post-Mormonism that service to others does not have to happen at LDS speed or intensity in order for it to count (something that I think many post-Mormons who want to help and serve have to adjust to). I can think of many simple acts of service that I enjoy in my own life, …helping a friend move, surprising a coworker with a nice bottle of wine after a vacation in wine country, and being willing to offer my home to someone I care about who’s looking for some temporary shelter and escape. I know I could do much more though. For example, I can do better at showing more interest in people with whom I might have less in common. I could be more understanding of people who don’t think in ways similar to my own. Anyway,… my thoughts for the evening. I guess I should start blogging soon since I have more to say. Great contributions so far everyone!
  Chili Pepper

• 6 Elise // Jul 11, 2007 at 10:55 am

  “…I have recently decided that I’m only interested in churches that celebrate diversity, support gay rights, and reinforce gender equality within their own congregational culture…”

  Note from his wife: Chili Pepper is probably more interested in churches in general b/c I am. Is that right, CP? I am still very interested in participating in church, which often involves CP, when otherwise he may not be as concerned with it at all.

• 7 Chili Pepper // Jul 11, 2007 at 12:44 pm

  #6) Elise, I think progressive churches such as the United Congregational Church are a very good thing. I would never be a regular participant at IUCC, but I do enjoy visiting once in a while, and would even enjoy getting to know a few people there. So my reasons for enjoying the atmosphere at IUCC go beyond your company while actually there. I’m also saying that I’ve personally defined my criteria more for participating in a church; hence “… I’m only interested in churches that celebrate diversity, support gay rights, and reinforce gender equality within their own congregational culture…” So a church like IUCC is a church that I’m actually interested in, …not necessarily because you are.

• 8 Elise // Jul 11, 2007 at 3:15 pm

  Ahhhh, I see. Good to know. Funny to be learning things like this through blogging. The internet really is an incredible thing!
  I don’t have much to comment on aside from really enjoying others comments and feeling a lot of empathy and “a-ha” moments through your words. It seems as though in one way or another, we all felt some level of leaving home when we left our religion.

• 9 John // Jul 13, 2007 at 9:57 pm

  As much as Jana and I are constantly talking and emailing each other, it’s amazing what I often learn about her from her blogging.

  Thank you everyone, for your thoughts. CP, we really do need to get together!

• 10 Caroline // Jul 19, 2007 at 9:05 am

  I am still a participating LDS, but I too struggle with some of these things.

  Community: I used to automatically feel a bond to any person I found out was LDS. I used to feel like I had really important things in common with other LDS people. But now that my own beliefs have evolved, I don’t feel that same sense of community, of fellowship, of shared goals and ideals. Sometimes I feel pretty lonely at church.

  Certainty: Well, that’s gone too. But I’m trying to embrace grayness, to embrace possibility rather than certainty.

  Morality: I have a very strong sense of morality on some issues (gender equity) but a grayness on others. Even though I’m still in the Church, it’s been exciting to take responsibility for my own morality. I decide whether what i hear over the pulpit is inspired or whether it’s hogwash.

  Service: Still have that to some extent. Both in and out of the church. I love my humanitarian calling!

• 11 grittypretty // Jul 26, 2007 at 8:09 am

  I enjoy reading all of the comments. I identify with Caroline, although in a less practicing way.

  While I miss the certainty and the community I do not miss full grown adults being told what their morality needs to be. As for service, my husband and I volunteer more than anyone we know. We made up our own callings: promoting art in Utah Valley. We also serve our neighbors with their construction projects, etc. which for some reason surprises some of them. (I think because if you’re not mormon “through and through” in Provo then you often sequester yourself away?)

  Some friends and I consider ourselves “ethnic mormons”. Although we’ve left the church’s inner fold I believe we still belong enough to merit our designation. I’m really proud of being a part of this religious movement. And while I’m out of sync with the majority of mormons I feel like the rest of the world has opened up to me.

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