Huh, I guess I didn’t think of it as such, but judo’s very much like a church to me: I go once a week (when I can, more often if I can), pratice with like-minded people about something that none of us are experts in, hang out afterward, and then go home, hoping that it’s made an impression on the rest of my life…

Let’s see: Mormonism and Quakerism…a very Quakerly question, by the way–much less divisive than focusing on the differences.

I’m still a newbie in Quakerism, but I find similarities due to Mormonism’s complexity. The strict hierarchy is balanced somewhat by the lay nature of Mormon ministry–there is no special training for leadership.

Mormon testimony meetings are much like Quaker meetings for worship, except that Mormons tend to get uncomfortable with the silences which are usually filled quickly with vocal ministry. They are akin to Quaker ‘popcorn’ meetings. Anyone, from child to adult, can get up to speak.

Both Mormons and Quakers value continuing personal revelation. Mormons place great importance on becoming convinced by the Spirit–their personal conversion experience.

That’s the best I can do right now–maybe Jana can come up with a few more.

Thanks for the referral to Grace Notes.

Thanks for your points on what you find compelling in Mormonism. As the parent who has been home-based with our girls for the past dozen years, I certainly appreciate the concern for family.

I don’t think there is a parallel for pre-existence, but there are, perhaps, rough parallels in Quakerism for eternal progression, the attainability of God, and even the well-oiled network.

Quakers are very open to the idea of learning throughout life. “Live up to the light that thou hast, and more will be given to thee,” is an old Quaker saying. They are also open to the idea that God’s full will, or the fullness of truth, may only be revealed progressively over time, through history. True, the emphasis is not so much on the individual soul getting better and better through eternity, as you characterize the Morman belief.

Quakers have also had an intimate sense of God’s presence within us and power to work in and through us. Though it is not frequently talked of these days, early Friends had a sense of perfectibility. George Fox, the spark of the whole Quaker bonfire in mid-seventeenth century England, said provocatively, “I am in that state in which Adam was before he fell.” The sense that we are not simply doomed in this life to sin, but, turning steadfastly to the Light of Christ within us, can live in righteousness, has its dangers of presumptuousness. But the result, which remains, has been a real focus on actively seeking to live a life of faith and goodness in action.

Finally, the Quaker network is certainly not as robust or well-oiled as the Mormon one, but it is very real. Quakers’ small numbers and continuing sense of being a “peculiar people”–or just not in the mainstream–means that Friends traveling or moving to a new place will be warmly welcomed in a distant meeting house, and will often bring greetings from their home meeting. Though far less developed than the bishops’ storehouses and such, Friends also have (still available in some places) an old tradition of the fund for sufferings (originally to help those among them suffering persecution). Such assistance might or might not go through official channels. My father lost his father when he was just 4 years old. He is quite certain that a certain older woman, to whom he was introduced once a year, paid for his schooling.

My father-in-law (the Presbyterian), who has lived in Utah all his life, has been troubled by what he sees as a Morman lack of emphasis on grace. He feels he has seen an emphasis on works righeousness, which leads, at times, to making everything look good on outside, even when there are real problems in someone’s personal life or in the family, and at other times to a devastating sense of failure when things don’t go well, in a marriage, professionally, or personally. Do Mormons have a particular take on grace, and do you see the problem that my father-in-law feels he sees?

Again, thank for your thoughts.

John, do you have any sense of parallels between Quakerism and Mormonism?

**They value familiy. No doubt there are doctrines and attitudes within the Mormon church (such as unfair treatment to women) that could be argued detrimental to the family. But they do also teach and value that family is more important than money, careers, and things, and Mormon teachings foster a sense of duty, commitment, and loyalty to family that is dwindling in today’s society.

**The doctrine/idea of eternal progression. The thought of an eternity of learning and getting better is very appealing to me.

**The idea that God is attainable. Though I have mixed feelings about the trinity vs. the Mormon God, I think it is a compelling and comforting idea that we can become like God. Blasphemous to say in a Christian nation, I suppose, but it makes me feel more closeness to diety when I think that God is probably more like me than Protestant Christianity teaches.

**The doctrine of pre-existence (that we existed prior to this world but can’t remember where we were before birth).

**The well-oiled network. You move somewhere, you make one phone call, and instantly have a congregation to meet with, friends welcoming you, help moving in, and someone to call if you need a helping hand.

Both Been There and Paul K: Have you read Grace Notes by Heidi Hart? It’s a poetic memoir of a Mormon woman who becomes a Quaker.

My wife grew up in Utah, a non-Mormon with a Morman heritage and a mixed family. She grew up in a Presbyterian Church (to which her parents have returned after a hiatus between children leaving home and retirement). One aunt was Catholic and the other Mormon. The rule in the family was always that cousins went to church with whichever family they were visiting. The long-term result has been a real appreciation for others’ faith.

Though I love my wife’s Morman cousins, I confess I have a hard time respecting many of the specifics I hear about Mormon beliefs. Though you’ve now left Morman membership, I sense that you also appreciate many things about Morman beliefs and practices. I wonder if you might be willing to share with some of us on the outside what is/was compelling to you about Mormonism. A big topic, and it may not be your calling to answer, but thought I’d ask. I know there are many things I now have an appreciation of that earlier in my life just seemed wierd and foreign.

We recently had a visitor at our Friends meeting from a meeting in Utah. He was telling me about his involvement with a local project spun off from the AFSC’s “Eyes Wide Open” (the boots) project. I got the impression then, which I’m also getting here, that pro-war fervency in your part of the country is stirring up a sort of counter-reaction in people’s hearts. (I’m not sure that’s the best way to put it, but perhaps you know what I mean.)

I’m struck by John’s appeal for Quakerly advice, and Jana’s for thoughts on enhancing the experience with the Clearness Committee. I guess the best I can offer right now is to point out that Quakers tend to look at things as more of an open-ended process, and to seek Divine guidance all along the way. Success is measured, in a sense, by how closely we feel our rapport with the Divine guide, and how well that spirit manifests in the texture of what we do. Not so much in specific outcomes like “becoming a member,” but in the process itself — “getting clear.”

I’ve also just requested a ‘Clearness Committee’ to help me transition from Mormonism to Quakerism. We’re meeting tomorrow night for the first time. Do you have any advice on how to enhance my Committee experience?

Thanks, Jana (Ms. Mindonfire)

I agree that there is a divide between theory and practice, ideals and implementation. We are leaving Mormonism because of its doctrines and institution, but in spite of our love for its people. Quakers are every bit as quirky as Mormons are, but our ideals, values, aspirations are more in sync.

I hope you’ll visit on occasion–we need all the Quakerly advice we can get!

A couple of thoughts. One is, I think Quakerism and Mormonism have similar roots — culturally and historically — for all of the differences. So you may not have made as much of a jump as you might think.

I guess in some of the social aspects of your experience — in-groups and hierarchies, etc. — it’ll feel like a big change, but you might want to watch for how experiences before and after are sometimes congruent.

My other thought is, as many Friends would tell you in a private moment, we’re not perfect. There’s always a gap between theory and practice. I see people here commenting on what I would call the “theory” of Quakerism, saying it’s appealing in various ways. In practice, it does vary from one meeting — in place and time — to the next. In the end it comes down to a group of people walking “in the Light” as best they/we can.

The testimonies spell out the word SPICE, by the way, but just to point out, they’re not doctrines in the way that other denominations may have them. The ‘C’ usually stands for “Community,” when I’ve seen them listed that way. Sometimes it’s “SPICES,” adding the concern for Sustainability…

John 14:2

In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.

Piotr

Thanks for your thoughts, John and Jana. I share some of the same concerns, and will definitely be keeping an eye on your journey.

Around 1970 I met a prophet, who said he had been sent to the Mormon temple in Salt Lake. His message had been that they would need to behave better by their own teachings or suffering a devastating earthquake; they arrested him but while he was sitting in a cell another impressive bearded man in an army blanket promptly showed up with the same message, whereupon they released him.

I don’t know whether there was any subsequent reform or not; what struck me was that the issue was not how many of their beliefs were valid, so much as whether they were living up to the beliefs they’d accepted. (I afterwards tried to read the Book of Mormon, and found it pretty implausible. On another hand, I may have inherited a tendency to react badly to coffee. So it goes.)

All this tickles my sense that while religious doctrines, their objective truth or falsity, does matter to me, God doesn’t feel the need to correct our errors immediately, but uses them as teaching tools for whatever people happen to respond to them. The main thing is whether we realize that direct contact with God, whereupon we can learn better and learn to see deeper. I don’t find the Quaker thing providing much of a “community” in my area, but it’s a form of disorganization that gives God space to work, with explicit room for new insights. You may get frustrated with Quakers, too, but it sounds like a positive change, for now.

Since grad school, I’ve felt like there’s some Unitarian in me.

Nee, I followed the link back to your blog, and I’m really looking forward to reading about your journey. I wish you the best. And yes, hooray for simplicity!

BiV, we do feel bad leaving you and our other friends behind. I really should rename this post though–we’re not leaving the greater Mormon community so much as we’re just leaving the institution. We wouldn’t want to lose our contacts with wonderful, brilliant people like yourself.

Oborosama, you are the pioneer, my friend. I only follow in your footsteps.