It’s been several weeks since I asked if there is place for feminist men in feminism. I think I’ve changed my approach to feminism as a result of that conversation (and thank you, everyone who contributed!) First, I have decided to listen to women more and to school myself in feminism: its theory, its history, and its real-world application (but I’ll continue to jabber away here). Second, I’ve decided that men need to create a predominantly male space to discuss feminist concerns. This is inspired by women who argue for the necessity of woman-only spaces and by Jana repeatedly suggesting that I need to get into gender/masculinity studies. The man-space I’m thinking of is similar those successfully implemented by women: places where feminist men can discuss their struggles with society’s narrow and debilitating definition of masculinity free from patriarchal censure (from men and women). I’m not saying that combined feminist spaces should be eliminated–they’re still very important. At the moment I’m more intuitive than I am rational about this need–I’m hoping to flesh out this idea (with your help!) over time.
So far I’ve found at least one other man who I think would agree with me. When I read the following quote from Hugo Schwyzer on his blog I almost whooped out loud:
Men do need to do the vital work of coping with their own very real issues, but we can’t do that by introducing them into a feminist setting. What we need to do is create specific spaces — like men’s studies classes — for focusing in on the myths, structures, and social obligations that create the “masculine mystique.” We need to find healthy ways to express our very real pain and frustration — and we need to express that pain to other men.
I agree completely with Hugo, and he expresses my desires much more clearly than I can. Also, I also don’t feel quite so isolated or strange. Thanks, Starfoxy, for turning my onto Hugo’s blog.
9 responses so far ↓
1 PodMonkeys // Mar 2, 2006 at 8:11 am
Men do have quite a bit of social pressures to overcome, but I don’t think forming men’s groups to express feelings is going to solve any problems. I also don’t think seperating out Men’s issues into seperate classes is the right idea. Why not one class that talks about men’s and women’s issues together?
To me, what I see is the further seperation of men and women. The idea is to educate and bring men and women together, but what I see is groups of people drawing lines in the sand and stepping back. Talking about the stereotypical female roles/rules without their male counterpart and vice-versa is like telling half a story to one group, and the other half to another. Both groups should be listening together to the full story.
In my view, the problem lies in all this pointing out of differences. If you keep pointing out the differences, thats all people will see. I think it’s great to celebrate diversity and culture, but to point out a person’s accomplishment because of their race/gender/sexual preference (r/g/sp), is kind of like saying they managed to accomplish the feat despite some handicap. Even with good intentions, seperating groups of people based on r/g/sp is still pointing out that the people are different and teaches people to continue thinking this way.
I’m of the view that we need to treat people as people, not as a categorical classification. I think the answer lies in our kids and what we teach them. It’s fine and all to talk about our feelings, but daddy going off to the Men’s group is teaching the kids that you talk to your own sex, not the other.
We need to start treating all people as humans. We need to stop teaching gender based roles to our kids. We need to stop saying slurs of any sort. We need to tell our kids that its wrong to say such things as “Thats gay” or “You throw like a girl”. We especially need to get rid of gender limited events for kids. What better way to teach gender roles than our all-American Boy and Girl Scouts organizations? Why do we have football in school for boys, but the girls version is called “Powder Puff”?
Society is going to take a while to change, but if we start teaching our kids that some of the stuff they see on TV and from their friends and teachers is garbage, the quicker we can make the world a better place. Tell them that its OK for them to choose whatever activity they want to do regardless of what others may think. Tell them that the exercise they got in class where they have to decide what 8 things to buy with $11,000 is teaching pointless consumerism that is the cause of many problems today. etc.etc.
Sorry thats so long. I hope thats somewhat helpful in giving my somewhat different point of view on things. IMHO, Seperation of any sort is still seperation.
2 John // Mar 2, 2006 at 10:51 am
You bring up a good point. I should provide a bit more background information:
When women gather in an open forum to discuss feminist issues, it is not unusual for men to come in and (often unwittingly) do one of several things:
- dominate the conversation, using authoritative language. Women will react to this in various ways–some will fall back into traditional passive and silent roles that are often prescribed by society when men and women speak together. Dialogue between feminists is often (but not always) characterized less by authoritative claims with rational support and more by the sharing of experiences (a tone I’m trying to adopt here on Mind on Fire).
- minimize concerns specific to women. They may whine about how they’re victims of the social order as well. While I think this is true, the type and magnitude of the victimization is very different, and women need to be able to work out issues specific to them.
- get defensive. It’s hard to be the representative of the empowered and oppressing gender, even if you’re sympathetic to the feminist cause.
So the problem is, when you put men and women together in these conversations, it often ends up reinforcing stereotypes, rather than allowing women the space to break free from them.
While men are also victims of gender stereotypes, there are differences between how men and women are affected by these stereotypes. I probably wasn’t clear enough about this, but I think that men and women need to have their own spaces in addition to spaces where both genders meet together to discuss common concerns.
I want a space to talk about the male experience of male stereotyping: how society tells me that I should like sports, not cry, be aloof, and value women in particular (and generally demeaning) ways (to name a few). I’d like to be able to talk about these real concerns without feeling like I’m diminishing issues specific to women, and I’d like to do it in an environment where I’m not worried about criticism from women.
That’s why I think that separate spaces need to exist. I don’t think they should be the dominant spaces–the only way for feminism to reach its goals is to have women and men working together. But until some level of healing occurs, I think the separate spaces are necessary as havens, as nurturing centers.
This dialogue is a gender inclusive one, so I hope that maybe Jana or Caroline or Holly or others can jump in and explain (gently) why they think it helps sometimes to have separate female spaces, such as separate Girl Scouts or all-female universities.
3 Holly // Mar 2, 2006 at 11:55 am
Hi John–
I read your post first thing this morning, and started to write a comment. But even in the five minutes I spent trying to gather my thoughts, they went from “Yeah, this isn’t a bad idea” to “Hmmm….” So I decided to wait a while and think more about this issue. The more I think about it, the more I think it’s an even better idea than I first realized. But I’m still not done collecting and sorting my ideas, so I’ll hold off saying anything further until whatever it’s going to be is more definitive.
4 PodMonkeys // Mar 2, 2006 at 12:16 pm
I’m not sure, but I think I might have come off sounding a little more argumentative than I originally intended. I think I should probably also note that most of my ideas probably come from an “Adults are pretty much screwed, so we need to focus on teaching the kids the right things so they don’t end up like us” slant.
I’ve never really had a problem talking about male/female issues with my female friends. If anything, I’ve had more issues with my male friends who are more entrenched in their “male roles.”
I had an idea about the men and women together reinforcing stereotypes. Can it be done with a mediator involved? Someone who doesn’t take sides, whos sole purpose is to keep the peace and point out how the groups are reacting and feeding off each others responses?
Oh, and even though I might have sounded argumentative, which I didn’t mean, good post John!
5 John // Mar 2, 2006 at 12:26 pm
Hey Monkey-boy–I didn’t think you sounded argumentative at all. You brought up questions similar to ones I’ve had in the past, and that still concern me. Thanks!
To clear up possible confusion, I’m mainly talking about discourse that occurs between women and men who are concerned about gender stereotypes and inequity.
6 J // Mar 2, 2006 at 9:24 pm
I’m curious if the man-space idea could really work. I wonder who would be interested in joining you?
Do you think man-groups would be the best place to start with addressing male issues, or is there some other way?
7 fournier // Mar 4, 2006 at 11:39 pm
hey,
just found your blog via the carnival of feminists and wanted to say hello.
i had a similar conversation on my blog last month. here’s a >link if you’re interested. we had a race element to the discussion too, as it’s necessary i think to address race and sex discrimination simultaneously if one is to be truly effective.
will be back!
we’re not alone, there are men who are serious about doing anti-oppression work. i think we’re just nervous about inadvertently dominating conversations and re-creating typical oppressive systems.
8 Holly // Mar 5, 2006 at 9:04 am
Hey John–
sorry it has taken me a while to get back to this.
Anyway, when I first read your entry here I thought, “Yeah, of course men have a right to discuss their issues on their own terms, and I have no reason not to acknowledge that.”
And then I thought, “Yeah, but consider some of the exclusively-male forums in which men have sought to understand masculinity and goodness–the symposia of ancient Greece, the pope and the cardinals, the first presidency and the 12 apostles of the Mormon church–and consider all the ways in which these forums have devalued and/or ignored the concerns of women. Even that august group, the founding fathers of the United States and framers of the constitution, saw no reason to consider the rights of women. So how can I know that these guys will act in good faith and really truly show concern for women, when women aren’t around?”
And the answer was, well, I just have to trust that these guys really do care about women. We can’t police the discourse that happens when we’re not present, but we have to trust each other enough to do it well.
And then it occurred to me that it’s kind of like therapy. I think a lot of good can come from couples’ therapy, but if there are problems in a relationship, each individual also needs to address certain problems on his/her own.
If men opposed to sexism can do some of the work of understanding and eradicating sexism on their own, it frees up the time women and men share together, so that they can work on other things.
So I’m not sure how it would work or what you’d intend to accomplish, but I hope you find some like-minded men who will share this endeavor with you, and I would be pleased to hear more about anything you might learn and accomplish.
9 John // Mar 5, 2006 at 11:24 pm
Fournier: thanks for the kudos and for the link to your blog. I agree with you about the need to be aware of the connection between sexism and other -isms (racism, capitalism, heterosexism, etc.), and I’m excited by the prospect of a growing male feminist blogosphere!
Holly: What I have to keep reminding myself and others, is that I imagine these dialogues taking place within the context of a greater feminist discourse. The examples of male forums you provided all take place in a contexts where one of the primary values is the reinforcement of patriarchy.
I’m growing more enthusiastic about the project as I encounter men like fournier and Hugo. I don’t think I need to create the space–it looks like it already exists. It just needs to be discovered by more men.
You can keep me honest as I embark on this new adventure.
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